Topic: [Locked] Something to think about

[karx-elf-erx]

IHateHackers,

knowing that you are a christian, I have to say I am shocked about your attitude towards speaking out for biblical faith and facts. With your attitude you are actually denying other christians the right to testify and to speak out for their beliefs.

I am not forcing my beliefs on anybody here, and I really don't know what makes you think that. I do however present my convictions here, and I do point out weaknesses in other convictions.

You are also very wrong in your assumption that there is no logic in the Bible, or in Faith. You are having some very dangerous half knowledge and obscure mystical thinking there. First of all, biblical faith is not of the kind "I believe it may rain tomorrow". It is, as Heb. 1:11 states the evidence of truths (or facts) unseen. "Unseen" doesn't mean "non existent". It is very logical that you cannot have true, biblical faith in something that doesn't actually exist. Insofar being agnostic  is completely antagonistic to being a christian. There you have your logic.

[Canceler]

nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others"

I didn't force my beliefs on others...I didn't use force, I used logic. Concerning your personal stance that "it's wrong to tell others their beliefs are wrong", I already showed you why that's logically incoherent. Here it is simpler: my belief is that it's right to call some beliefs wrong. You perfectly exemplify my own stance by saying I'm wrong about that, thus you are wrong even in your own sight. I encourage you to abandon it because it is utter nonsense that is logically impossible to conform to.

nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others"

First order of business: claiming that I am (and maybe also Karx is) doing such a forceful thing is a Strawman Fallacy.
Second order of business:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,

which requires telling people that their beliefs are wrong, if and when their beliefs are wrong.

Now just to clarify, you are perfectly free, if indeed willing, to reject everything I said and everything I'm arguing for. But as a logician, I must say, rejecting my conclusions without proper evaluation (first of the inference quality, then of the truth of the premises) is pooh-poohing, and in the practice of logic it is a recognized fallacy.

[karx-elf-erx]

Well said.

IHateHackers,

You could rightfully claim we'd be forcing our beliefs on others if we had physically bound them and would be only giving them the choice of conversion or death through sword or fire.

I think it is safe to say that this is neither what we're doing here, nor what we're all about.

[Matthew]

To me, that means "Go out and give them the tools they need to follow christ if they so choose". Not "Follow christ exactly as I say or you're going to hell".

You are not being forceful, canceler. Karx on the other hand, is.

There's a difference. I am telling your actions are rude and wrong, I'm saying nothing about your beliefs.

My beliefs are my own business. Christianity at its core is about my relationship with Christ. My relationship is nobody else's business unless I ask them, and likewise theirs is not mine. There is hardly a person in America who hasn't heard christian preachings before, especially someone who says they go to church. Therefore, for me or anybody else to continue preaching to them is unnecessary and unproductive. If they were going to convert or whatever is it you want them to do, they'd have done it the first 500 times.

You are trying to force them by telling them "you are wrong, change or go to hell". Not all force is physical, especially in something that exists entirely in the non-physical realm such as religion. The strongest forces of all are those of emotion and thought. You can force me to perform an action, you cannot ever force mt to think a thought or feel an emotion.

[D2Disciple]

I respond quite carefully as I say this:

I am a Christian, and, stated succinctly, I believe in a Jesus Christ that did in fact claim he was God ("Before Abraham was, I AM") and who claimed He is the only mediator through which we have a relationship with God ("I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - no man comes to the Father except through Me"). As C.S. Lewis pointed out, Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or He was Who He said He was. There's no "good man" or "good prophet" argument to be had here. To have a relationship with Christ is to have a relationship with the Father ("He who has seen Me has seen the Father"). On those point, therefore, I would find Bettina's philosophies to be quite misled and misinformed, just as you yourself do, Karx.

I am not unmoved by this; rather, I should certainly hope to have the opportunity to share with her the statutes of my faith with her in a way that would bring her to a saving knowledge of Christ. Let's all face it - as a Christian, and therefore I view faith in Jesus Christ to be the only way to have a relationship with the God of the universe, who both loves and yet judges the world according to His perfection, with which none live up to except through the sacrificial work of His Son Jesus. These are harsh words to those that do not sign up to such a belief, and can certainly come off as condemning or unloving.

I must agree with you on every point you've made thus far, Karx. And yet, I must disagree with your delivery. And believe you me - I have had to learn this lesson time and again - proclaiming a faith that requires self-denial and the repentance of sins and believing that only One Name exists through which we are able be saved can be bitterly caustic to others. Only through a display of love and of care can we ever expect to lend credibility to our faith. I am not a condemning person. I believe in forgiveness, in love, in humility, in service to others, in the proclamation of the gospel of Christ, and in following the commandments of Scripture (and, of course, I frequently fail in all of those areas, which is why the grace of God exists). I certainly will not lie down to sleep tonight without saying a prayer for Bettina.

Ironic, then, that Bettina has come across as much more loving and less condemning then you do, Karx. That's the reason I suggested that you make this a private affair. You can always deliver your beliefs in a much gentler way without sacrificing the content. A good friend of mine once claimed to be agnostic, and many a Christian friend of mine (and previously, of his) came up to him with the same brash attitude that you've shown towards Bettina. He knew what I believed - and I reiterated it to him. He wasn't interested in what I had to share, so I simply determined to live out my faith before him and continue to build my friendship with him whatever way I could. He may one day open up to what I have to say, and he may not. I would be tremendously disappointed if he did not, but I'm certainly going to show him respect and (a degree) of tolerance to his beliefs, because otherwise, I have not even begun to practice what I preach (1 Corinthians 13). I care about him deeply, and I strive to make that known without becoming arrogant or demanding.

Your assessment of Bettina's beliefs was therefore unduly forward and out of place. Like I said before, this was a topic started in encouraging Vanguard to make the right decision regarding his future, and also, this is a Descent forum. Actually, had this been a forum about religious discussion, I would have backed you 110%, Karx. If you want to start a discussion about religious topics that need not include everyone besides those who want to be included, and everyone understands that evangelism (or proselytizing, as many forums call) necessarily follows certain faiths, be my guest. I am not a believer in denying all talk about politics and religion, but in this particular thread, your comments were definitely forced and did not serve to help Vanguard.

I'm leaving this forum open because I don't feel like this will become a flame war of sorts as long as everything here is clearly understood. However, if another moderator feels that it is time to shut it down, I stand behind them.

[karx-elf-erx]

Sorry D2Junkie,

but I completely disagree with your evaluation of my "delivery". I have learned a thing or two as well in my over twenty years of being born again. Love isn't always in kind words. It is easy to come over loving and forgiving if you don't have firm beliefs. As you can also easily see from Bet's comment about me, she is by far not only the nice person she is presenting herself as to others. I don't care about a nice facade when stuff like that comes out of the heart.

I also have to say that I am fed up of Bettina inevitably spreading their beliefs everywhere she gets an opportunity - not because it's Bettina, but because of the nature of her beliefs. It therefore was not inappropriate to point out to her where she is wrong (imo), or at least illogical. I think it was about time to confront her with that. I am also fed up of all this "you have to talk nice and sweet not offend the non believers" when sometimes they just need to hear the truth in clear words. The bible has clear words about those only telling others what they want to hear.

You may not like my presentation of my beliefs, because it may be dry and factual to the extent of appearing harsh and also addressing personal weaknesses, but that doesn't make it less valid. What do you definitely do not know about is my attitude towards Bettina. Apparently you are concluding that I would reject or condemn here from my rejection of her beliefs, and that is where you are wrong. I am also not condemning her for being arrogant, but imo she is, and imo she needs to hear that. I wonder if she ever got any feedback from all you "nice" people that would have made her seriously think about her beliefs and some of her character traits. Put people under pressure, and you will find out what's really inside them.

Think about whether you would go and tell Smith Wigglesworth, or John Wesley, or Reinhard Bonnke they should be (or have been) nicer to the people. The gospel will never be welcome to everybody, regardless of its presentation. As a christian, you should know that.

My beliefs are my own business. Christianity at its core is about my relationship with Christ. My relationship is nobody else's business unless I ask them, and likewise theirs is not mine. There is hardly a person in America who hasn't heard christian preachings before, especially someone who says they go to church. Therefore, for me or anybody else to continue preaching to them is unnecessary and unproductive. If they were going to convert or whatever is it you want them to do, they'd have done it the first 500 times.

This is 100% wrong - at least if you are serious with Jesus. The bible tells you clearly that you should be a witness - that is with your life and your words. Your attitude also is 100% unresponsible. As a christian, you should have understood that you are having a responsibility for unsaved people around you. That doesn't mean you constantly have to talk everybody around you into being a christian, but it means that you should pray for and talk to them under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Obviously many of the people having heard 500 sermons haven't heard the right thing yet, and thus it is right to keep testifying (with words and life).

You are trying to force them by telling them "you are wrong, change or go to hell". Not all force is physical, especially in something that exists entirely in the non-physical realm such as religion. The strongest forces of all are those of emotion and thought. You can force me to perform an action, you cannot ever force mt to think a thought or feel an emotion.

First of all, nobody here has threatened anybody with hell. Second, even if we did, we couldn't cast anybody there. Third, if there is a hell, and people are in danger of getting there, then it is our duty to warn them, and the danger is real with or without us telling them. Apparently you also have not understood that the Kingdom of God ("religion") does not just exist in the non-physical realm. It's made physical through the believers, and that's what Jesus said, not what I am saying.

You are trying to discredit me by insinuating I would try to force anybody. Where did I say Bet what she has to believe? All I pointed out were the flaws in her beliefs.

You are the kind of christian that doesn't want to accept any of the challenges and duties being a follower of Jesus brings with it, but tries talk himself out of it, giving himself an appearance of godliness with nothing to back it up. Yeah, I know you don't like to hear all of that, because actually you are resenting these biblical truths.

[Canceler]

Karx, have a powerup.

Looks like the whole situation has been this (simplified at the risk of building a strawman, but I think this accurately captures what's been going on)
*Bettina interjects philosophical beliefs*
Karx: those are logically incoherent
Bettina+Everyone else: You're rude! <- Ad Hominem.

Nobody has tried to handle Karx's claims directly. That's the biggest problem I'm seeing here.
So I'm starting to wonder... Can you?

edit: I just noticed people recently are starting to touch on the issues themselves. That's good, I just wanted to point out the fallacious argumentation that was preceeding, and I hope it's done.

[Matthew]

Pardon me, O Righteous One, but a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".
b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?

EDIT: Canceler, it's not about whether Karx is right or wrong. It's about whether he's being rude and out of place or not.

Try this version:

Bettina: States beliefs briefly, as does Vanguard and several others
Karx: Your beliefs are wrong and you're going to hell for it if you don't change!
Everyone else: You're rude!

Like I said, it's none of my concern what someone else chooses to believe. They've been told before, they can choose themselves to take it or leave it. Call me un-christian if you will, but I think the world needs kindness far more than it needs intolerance. Whether that kindness originates from someone who believes the same as me or not is irrelevant to me. God and God alone will choose who to save, and who to use in his plans. It is not up to us to choose.

[karx-elf-erx]

Pardon me, O Righteous One

Yes, I am made righteous through Jesus Christ. I know what you are trying to say though.  What does that kind of personal attack on the other side say about you? Is that all you have to offer, your best argument? Don't look the other direction now, my friend.

a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".

You say it: She stated them, regardless why.

b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Don't claim it, prove it!

Karx: Your beliefs are wrong and you're going to hell for it if you don't change!

This quote makes you a plain liar. I never said, nor suggested that.

Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?

You may want to Google bible quotes you don't really know. God will certainly not condemn the righteous. You sound like you don't go to church (or at least don't listen to the sermons), and don't read the bible. It's funny someone like you claims he is a christian but contradicts every responsibility and duty accompanying that.

I am excited to hear about your concept of humility.  I have to say that you don't fit too well in mine.

[Matthew]

b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Don't claim it, prove it!

Oh, you mean like you're doing? I claimed nothing, I asked you a question. Your reaction tells me that is indeed what you're doing, whether you wish to admit or not. Yet for some reason because you feel more important for being "right", it's good for you to do it and bad for her to do it.

My concept of humility? Not sure, but I know you don't fit it.

Please show me where it's a crime to state one's beliefs, karx.

[karx-elf-erx]

Stop talking yourself out of it all the time.

Your question was a rhetorical one, and as such as statement.

I never said stating ones opinion was wrong ("a crime"). Actually you are all the way saying that about me. I do however believe and say that some opinions are wrong.

So far I have been able to disprove everything you have said. Now you are more and more resorting to what Canceler calls "ad hominem" statements.

It looks like you have nothing really substantial to say (not even about your concept of humility), and I am tired of your made-up, false claims and accusations here. You have been posting lies already. Think about who the "Father of Lies" and "Accuser of the Brethren" is, if you know that much (judging from your lack of bible knowledge I am starting to doubt you do), and if you really want to be brought into relation with that.

[Canceler]

Pardon me, O Righteous One

Loaded Words.

but a) How was she in any way spreading her beliefs? She stated her beliefs because it was in the context of Vanguard's problems. She didn't say "My beliefs are right and yours are wrong".

Beliefs are touchy that way. Merely stating them can be an indirect (even unintended) accusation of wrong against mutually exclusive beliefs. If I said I believe Islam is true, then indirectly I state my belief that every "infidel", as they say, is going to Hell. People have a right to state their beliefs, indeed. Nobody is questioning that. And if I, or anyone, believe someone else's beliefs are wrong, then we have the right to say so, too.

b) Isn't that exactly what you're doing?

Is there a legitimate problem with that?

Is there not a bible verse somewhere that says "God will condemn the righteous and raise up the humble"?

I did a quick search and (I am not as proficient as I ought to be) the closest thing I came up with is this:
1 Peter 5:5 "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
Indeed, everyone involved in such discussion of fundamentals is at risk of pride, but addressing beliefs that are (or even at least seem to be) false is possible with humility, by carefully staying on subject and not becoming offensive. (Note: your address to Karx as "O Righteous One" is a personal attack.)

I claimed nothing, I asked you a question.

Loaded question = hidden claim. You claimed it.

Please show me where it's a crime to state one's beliefs, karx.

It's not. And I believe, as Karx believes, that Bettina's beliefs are false. Anyone has the right to state that if they believe it.

It's about whether he's being rude and out of place or not.

Well I smell a sneaky strategy going on there. You don't like what Karx is saying on a fundamental level, so (perhaps even subconsciously) you're going on about a way to make him stop. Quickest way to do that is to make him look like his behavior is out of line. As a matter of fact, that kind of strategy matches the definition of Ad Hominem perfectly. Personally, I don't think he has been rude. I find Karx to be a dead-honest philosopher. That can make people feel uncomfortable, but truth be told, Karx hasn't been making ANY personal insults.

[karx-elf-erx]

Karx hasn't been making ANY personal insults (although Karx your most recent post is getting REALLY close).

If IHateHackers is a christian, and given how far he has gone already, I think it is time to seriously remind him in whos realm he is moving with that. It is the exact same stuff I remind myself of when I start to talk or even just think bad about other christians. I think it is one of the devil's greatest delights to turn christian against christian and spread division and strife between brothers (and sisters) in the spirit. I have seen it too often, I have seen what it can and will do, and by all means I don't want any of this in my life.

I have seen so often what IHateHackers is doing here. When people don't like to hear something, but cannot counter it with good arguments, they start and try to discredit their "adversary" on a personal level. Once they have succeeded, they have automatically disqualified everything he has said (so they think), making them believe they don't have to deal with it anymore. Well, you may kill the messenger, but that won't change the message and its truth.

D2Junkie,

since this thread has gone quite OT from its original topic, it might be an idea to split it, don't you think?

[Matthew]

Congrats on missing the point. It's not about proving or disproving anything. It's about respecting others, plain and simple. I never knew you were religious, and frankly I liked you better that way. You're just as disrespectful now as you have ever been, and frankly I'm ashamed to call myself a member of the same group of people as you. I'm not really sure what point you think I'm trying to make, but I really don't appreciate you insinuating that being religiously tolerant makes me less of a christian.

Canceler and karx both, I'm not sure why you both seem to lump personal beliefs and opinions of others belief in the same word.

Canceler, yes those most certainly were loaded words. Yes, it is a personal attack. But it also fits right in with my previous statement about the righteous and the humble.

According to karx himself, yes there is a legitimate problem with that.

Why do I need to prove my claim? Indeed, how does one prove that?

(Back to karx post again) Christians will receive no special treatment in my book. Christians are not infallible, we're not special. We're normal people. Where do you think Christianity came from? It split off from Catholicism. Division and strife.

I'm not even trying to argue about religion. You can think whatever the heck you want. Just don't go preaching to everyone who thinks differently about how they're going to hell for it. If someone wants to be corrected and has indicated such, perhaps even by where they posted it, fine. But this is not the time or place for it, and she didn't. Preaching to those who will not listen achieves nothing. A point I keep making that you keep ignoring.

[karx-elf-erx]

IHateHackers,

no, it is not about respect for others for you, as you are showing no respect for me. That are just shiny words disguising the true nature of your attacks. It is simply about your convictions and what you like to hear about them and what you don't like.

What you are trying to do is to silence me. In a good, respectfully conducted discussion you have to prove your claims and not hurl personal attacks at people who are saying things you don't like, doing the very thing you are attacking them for refusing it to others: Stating their opinion. You admit that you cannot even prove your claims. You even admit that all you are doing is to post personal attacks. It is just ridiculous that you actually believe that would be justified.

I am giving you my definition of humility: Humility first of all is accepting the truth of God's word and trying your best to live by it - starting by giving your life to Jesus Christ and let him change your heart and guide you through life. Obeying God is a sure sign of loving God (all of which is accomplished by God, yet has to be lived out by us). That includes accepting your state before God (both privileges and duties), and being able to accept justified criticism and act on it in a constructive way. It has become quite obvious that you have nothing of that. If I was you I'd be very careful not to have bible words I quote turn against me, how wasted giving such advice to you might be.

You are making it very hard to believe that you are a born again christian. While I can't tell for sure, I seriously doubt it.

I don't care whether you like or allow me to present my beliefs, and opinion about their beliefs, to others. You have been all the way negative, aggressive, offensive and anti-scriptural, thus completely invalidating what little point you might have had. Given how you have presented yourself and your beliefs here, you are by no means a person whos opinion would have any value in my book.

You are entitled to say the same about me, but (since you are not a forum mod or admin, who'd have the right to remove everything from this forum he or she might see fit) not to denying me saying that. Right now you are the one who cannot live with opinions of others he doesn't like. Well, you gotta live with them, like it or not.