Topic: Valhalla...debate

[DarkWing]

Which is exactly why programs made 10 years ago still run, right? Because microsoft makes breaking changes? IIRC the only thing wrong with Descent 1 and 2 running without DXX was the clock being out of sync and joystick problems.

Oh, is that all? Go ahead and play like that then.

Considering vortex has neither use for a clock (and I mean a clock in terms of the computer, not a time of day lock) nor a joystick... Also, Descent was written for DOS which wasn't even Windows at all.

No, it was Microsoft either way.

[-<WillyP>-]

But that is my whole point, maybe Vortex will run on some os twenty years from now, maybe not. But instead of Vortex we could just as easily say D2X-xl or DXX or whatever. The point is, someone has to do the maintaining and updating and hosting and support. If whoever owns Vortex made it open source, THAT STILL APPLIES... it won't maintain itself, SOMEONE has to do it. You? Community? Still, it is someone.

[Matthew]

The difference is that the community as a collective will not just suddenly up and shut down like one person could. The whole idea behind open-source projects.

[Scyphi]

...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.

[Kaiaatzl]

As long as there's one person willing to do it though, it can get done.
And with a community large enough - and "large enough" doesn't have to be "large" - there will be someone willing to do it.  Analogy - In the upcoming provincial election, there will definitely be someone in my neighbourhood who will vote NDP, even though the majority of votes will probably be either Liberal or Conservative.

I think Scyphi is falling into the same fallacy that politicians do when they talk about "voters" as a collective, deciding something ("I think [insert countrymen here] will come to see that my party...").  Because that's not what happens.  Each person decides something different.  And with a large enough community, there will still be someone voting for the person who doesn't win.

[-<WillyP>-]

...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.

Thank you.

[Matthew]

...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.

And somebody will. Somebody will want to get something done, and given the resources they need (in this case being the source code for Vortex), they will get it done. I really hope you're not implying that the entire Descent community, with all its talent, would sit by and watch what's essentially our only option for multiplayer die.

[-<WillyP>-]

No, not at all, go back to the beginning of the thread and refresh your memory as to what we were talking about.

[Scyphi]

My point is that I've participated in enough open-source projects before (even sort-of led one) that all fizzled because there wasn't enough participation.  That's not to say that I expect the Descent community will let their best available means for multiplayer die out, far from it. I'm just saying that going that route isn't always the best, and sometimes what needs to get done doesn't get done when it needs to through that route as well.

On another note...

I think Scyphi is falling into the same fallacy that politicians do...

Egad! I've been likened to politicians! NOOO!

*takes a deep breath*

Eh, oh well. On with the discussion.

[Crash]

You're both right.
It's lack of participation and the desire to 'own' your own bit of the community.

It's very difficult to actually recruit people who will do what you tell them to in a serious way.
If you set out to do something, the chances are 99% that you're gonna be doing it ... on your own.
People will promise to help you out with things but when you actually rely on them to do it, it always falls through.

And then you have the issue of factionalism. Everybody wants their own little sandpit to be king of.

It takes a lot of trial and error and just ... perseverence to get past these. If someone sets up a service like that then people have to recognise its worth and also how much effort's been put in for them to get behind it themselves and help you with it meaningfully
... and that almost never happens.

So - for the sake of my understanding:
1. This Vortex thing is the main way of playing Descent3 online?
2. It requires a server
3. That server is privately run by a guy (who presumably had nothing to do with developing/marketing the game) out of his funds with the help of contributions from the community?

Right ... On that basis, then I think any company with any interest/stake in the Descent franchise will reluctantly agree to help fund the server costs. I mean, the costs can't be all that much to manage for a company with a turnover.
It's not fair for one guy to shoulder all that with a few contributions from individuals.

Just write them a really good letter. I wonder whether a paper one might be better than email but ... for this sort of thing an email might actually be more appropriate because it's less formal. I don't know.
And you should 'sign' it from all the people here (put my name on it) and put peoples' websites at the bottom so that they know that they names aren't made-up.
Outline what the costs are and then send that to the managing director of ... Interplay, Outrage, whoever and see if they bite.

[-<WillyP>-]

Vortex only provides a convienient way of connecting to a server. It is in some ways like a browser. Actually I guess you could say it is a browser, but it browses games, not websites. There are a lot of other features too, like connecting with chat, downloading and installing missions, launching D3 with comand line settings, and some more.

I am not sure where or how Vortex gets the list of games to browse, anyone know how that works? I assume from D3.Descent.cx Game Browser.

In a sense the costs are spread out somewhat. Different members of the community provide different pieces of the chain. For example we all provide support and training for new players here on Planet Descent. Various Desenters provide the servers on which multi-player games are played. Thomas provides an installer, etc...

[karx-elf-erx]

FYI: Vortex mostly is a match making program for Descent 3 (and hence offering a chat, too). WillyP has already pointed that out.

I can't see microsoft making any breaking changes to windows that could break vortex (or any program)...

I didn't think you were that narrowminded IHateHackers. Even I know better than to think like that.

"Narrow minded"? Even you should see the point in what IHateHackers said. MS has changed Windows a lot (for the better), but has also done a lot to preserve backwards compatibility - even to a point where it is, honestly spoken, ridiculous. It looks like you are much more preoccupied than IHateHackers is. He is at least presenting some facts. You however are resorting to getting personal (and offensive).

...assuming, of course, that the community decides they're going to put in their two bits. If they don't, then you get the same result.

Oh, I think the community has done that ... one bit for D2X-XL, the other one for Rebirth. Not to forget about D3 (another "half" bit?).

[Matthew]

The thing that's important about Vortex is that it can also retrieve listings from gamespy, and is, as far as I know, the sole means of doing so. When I look at vortex, maybe 1 or 2 results are from descent.cx. Of course, descent.cx lists the same games, but if vortex dies, that leaves just descent.cx, which is no more immune from closing than vortex, and I would imagine costs significantly more to maintain (An actively-running tracker server, rather than just a webserver). I won't go into "customer support" and "code maintainance" costs, because, honestly... When was the last time either was updated? And how much support does Checkor (or whoever runs descent.cx) personally give out? Most of it seems to come from the community.

I can't speak for everybody, but vortex is far more convenient than descent.cx as well. Which leads to a curious question... How many people use vortex and how many people use descent.cx or direct IP?

[Crash]

I would have to say that Microsoft has struck a great balance RE: backwards-compatibility v breaking it.
It has made some weird choices with Win7 and Vista (ie. you can't seem to plug in a custom system midi controller ).

I think they broke what they had to with Vista and that's basically us sorted for the forseeable future.
I mean, that's one reason why Vista was so unpopular. It didn't run all the badly-written crap that people got to work with XP.
7 was everyone's sweetheart because it didn't have to go back and break anything - and it runs a good bit faster.

I think it's quite nice from a Windows developer perspective that Mac has to resort to marketing and glitz and really ... quite deceptive advertising and this whole notion of the 'apple experience', whatever that is, to sell its crap these days.
Before, the apple computer was a valuable, useful sector of the market. It costed something to buy one but it was a useful OS, doing more with less and it was the best if you were in a production environment. Well, now Adobe and Apple are at loggerheads pretty much.

I mean, how long have Apple been on OS X? They just seem to me to be sticking on more useless, glitzy things like Time Machine, which hardly anyone will probably ever use.
I was speaking to someone who had to use it for lab research. He was saying how slow it was compared to Windows or even Ubuntu (which is a reasonably demanding Linux distro, obviously).

[VANGUARD]

I have the iMac OSX and I know I have the time machine. I have no idea what some of these things are though.
okay, warning, this just popped into my head.

The three computer nerds wanted to see what kind of operating system would suit them best. A computer expert said, "it may take some time, so go out and go for a walk."
So they did.
They came back and the first nerd opened up Windows and said, "This is too empty and bland."
The second turned on Mac OSX. "This is too bloated with stuff I'll never use."
and the third turned on Linux and said, "This is just right."

sorry; just popped in my head.