Topic: [Locked] Something to think about

[karx-elf-erx]

Keep it civil? I'm not even going to touch that one.

As usual, you have nothing really to say, so you are making some more "loaded words".

Distorted preconceptions? I assure you I had no conceptions about you prior to this conversation. I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.

Why is it so hard for you? It is you who doesn't want to admit my opinion here. It is you who is trying to silence me. I didn't try to silence Bettina, I tried to show here where she's wrong.

You want to hear from me that you are a nice guy? Prove it, and I will call you so. Right now, you are doing nothing but the opposite.

The way you are twisting the truth here is disgusting and honorless.

I think these are good final words to you: "It's not the things that are going into us that are making us impure, it's the things that are coming out of us."

I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.

What kind of christian are you? The bible tells us to make all the world disciples. How would you propose to accomplish that if we must not speak about God to others?

I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.

[Matthew]

Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.

The irony of this is not lost me, I assure you.

[karx-elf-erx]

Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.

Can't Bettina do what she pleases now?

If you haven't read and understood it by now, its probably pointless to remind you of the purpose and tasks a christian should fulfil on this planet.

[Matthew]

Now who's resorting to personal attacks?

[Canceler]

I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.

Quite simply, because of mutual exclusivity. Being a logician myself, I tend to assume everyone is as well. So if someone states a belief that they have, and this belief, if true, causes problems for my beliefs, then, in the interest of pursuing the truth (which in the case of philosophical discussion tends to decide how to live one's very life), I am obligated to seek out the reasons behind a person's beliefs. Hence, I question them, I test them, in order to prove or bust them.

This is done by highlighting the problems with those beliefs that challenge mine. If the other person is correct, then I need to change the way I think. However, I have eternity invested in the beliefs I have now. Naturally I'm not going to relent in my assessment, and will pursue the opposition's deconstruction ardently. This behavior is not wrong, it is in the interest of finding the truth. In cases like this, where the opposing beliefs have evident flaws (self-conflict: believing in Jesus but not the Biblical God), it is necessary to point out that flaw--which is the first thing I saw Karx actually do.

Live and let live does not mean telling someone off for their beliefs. Live and let live means you keep to yourself and let them do as they please.

Not only does the pursuit of truth require that we check mutually exclusive beliefs for our own sake, but realize that our own beliefs have quite grave implications for other people who disagree. I believe all people who do not recognize and accept Jesus as the Christ will be given to Hell. If holders of opposing beliefs cannot deconstruct this belief of mine, then am I not obligated to attempt to convince them of the beliefs that, if true, will save them from an otherwise terrible fate? It is not meant to become an attitude of "holier than thou" or to become a hate-tactic; if a Christian, such as myself and Karx, is truly convinced of his or her beliefs, then persuasive argumentation is an act done out of concern for the opponent's eternal well-being. That is why our Great Commission was instigated.

I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.

It's a lonely world out here bro.

[karx-elf-erx]

I am simply stating a fact. Concerning the purpose of a christian I was expressing myself clear and simple enough. If you haven't read or understood it, then I think it's valid to assume you don't want to, and if that is the case, reminding you of it is pointless.

"Born again?"

Clearly you and I are not of the same denomination.

Obviously you are not what I would call a christian then (and what the Bible defines as such), and this explains why you are having such a watered-down view of christianity.


Canceler,

not so lonely.

[VANGUARD]

I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.

What kind of christian are you? The bible tells us to make all the world disciples. How would you propose to accomplish that if we must not speak about God to others?

I am getting the impression that quite a few christians here don't know at all what being a christian really means.[/quote]

there's a difference between going to church and having someone preach the Word. It's another to personally go after someones belief and try to change them. Do you think God wants forced love? Maybe karx could have worded it better and it would have made a big difference.

I just think a more tactful way, if needed to even bring it up, would have been better.

[karx-elf-erx]

Vanguard,

please make sure to have read and understood what I have been saying to Bettina before posting things that have nothing to do with it, like the stuff about "forced love". All I have tried is to make Bettina rethink her beliefs and apply some common sense and logic to it, and to think over her attitude and behavior towards me.

There is no difference between someone going to church and someone preaching the word. I am not a preacher. I am a software developer. I am also a born again christian though, hence I am called to tell people about the gospel, or hint them to it in one way or the other, depending on the person. So I will take a stand when I see fit. Now I have seen people talk to Bettina about the love of God and everything in a kind and tender way, and I have seen her reject it. So I will not push her into that again, but simply show the contradiction in her beliefs in the hope that she will start to test her beliefs herself and see where they fail, hoping that will enable her to penetrate to the truth herself. I don't think she's the person who will just easily believe what others are telling her, I believe she is the person who must figure it herself. If you see it that way, I am having a lot of respect for her. If you see my telling her that she is arrogant in the light of my having confidence that she has the maturity to deal with it and reflect her own actions in my feedback, then you will understand that I am having respect for her in that, too. Of course it is up to her where she is interested in finding a solid truth or prefers the cosy illusion of being safe with her current beliefs.

[Matthew]

Being a christian, as I was taught it, means to follow christ, and have a relationship with christ. Please tell me where I am going wrong here and not understanding what it means to be a christian. If someone asks, I will tell them. But I see no need to preach to someone who doesn't want to hear it. This isn't 1000 BC anymore. Everyone has heard of God and Jesus, whether they believe it or not is their choice. Nothing I can say will change their mind. What's more, people tend to shy away from things that they associate with bad memories. If someone has memories of attacked by Christians for not believing, it's not exactly going to make them want to join in on that.

Further, Bettina said she believes in Jesus. Also known as Christ. What is the root word of Christianity? Christ. Whether she intends it or not, I think Bettina follows closer to Christ than many people who would call themselves devout Christians. I have never seen her be anything but a good person, and to tell her she's going to hell for it is just disgusting.

If minding my own business and keeping my relationship with Christ to myself makes me less of a Christian in your eyes, then so be it. Your judgement is not the one that matters.

[D2Disciple]

Great. I get back home to find my earlier defense called into question and a war break out between Karx and IHateHackers. Yes, I'm a Christian, and I know what being a Christian really means. I also know what disunity means. I tried to keep things civil for the sake of the gospel, because a bunch of so-called Christians arguing over who's really Christian or not just makes the gospel look that much more unattractive. If you're sincerely interested in winning souls to Christ, people, you'd better shut up and stop flinging mud. This is rather immature. Talk about the matter privately, you two.

* D2Junkie hovers menacingly over "Lock Topic" button

[Matthew]

* D2Junkie hovers menacingly over "Lock Topic" button

* D3matt  jumps of top of D2junkie, causing him to dip dangerous close to the button.

[Pumo]

I think everyone here has a point (Bettina, Karx, IHateHackers, Canceler) and I understand what everyone one wants to say perfectly, and everyone is (at least to my eyes) perfectly right in one or another way according to the beliefs of each one.

BUT, although an interesting discussion, this is looking almost identical to E&C and it's not the kind of discussion I like to see in PD.  
(not that my opinion matters that much lol  )

[karx-elf-erx]

I have replied to most of that already, particularly where Bettina went wrong.

There's a bit of theology behind the term "being born again". To make a long story short: When you consciously and willingly accept that

- you have failed to please God (a.k.a. have sinned)
- have therefore deserved punishment in the form of eternal separation from God (a.k.a. eternal death - I could bring in hell here, but seeing God and knowing you won't be living with him would be hell already)
- that the death of Jesus Christ is acceptable for God as replacement for punishing you
- claim that replacement for you personally
- on that base, ask God to forgive you and replace your spirit (which has been destroyed by sin) with a new spirit
- invite Jesus as your saviour, master and friend into your life

then according to the Bible, God will forgive you and fill you with a new spirit (like a new engine for a broken car engine, to use an analogy) allowing you to communicate with God in a way impossible for you previously

The result is that God will want to communicate (speak) with you, that he will start to change your "heart" (i.e. the essence of who you are) to make your character resemble more and more the character of Jesus. The logical next step is to be baptized in water, which symbolizes the death of your old nature and resurrection as a new, Christ-like nature (and, according to scripture, is also a request to God for a purified conscience), and to be baptized (infilled) with the Holy Ghost, which according to scripture (usually) is a separate event requiring you to invite the Holy Ghost, and (according to scripture) is accompanied by the Holy Ghost giving you a special, heavenly prayer language (-> speaking in tongues).

A consequence of all these steps when done sincerely and honestly is that you will start to feel a desire to please God and follow what he shows you he would like to see from you. That is first of all to spend time with him talking to him and listening to him (-> prayer). I purposefully not calling this prayer because for many people coming from traditional churches this means a lifeless, stiff, religious exercise, while living and talking with God isn't at all like that. Another consequence is that you will want to read the Bible and attend a church that practises all these things (just take your time to find a church where you can feel welcome and at home). A third consequence is that you will start to have times where you praise and worship God with songs and words (this is also scriptural). Yet another consequence is that you will understand your responsibility for helping God to bring other people into His forgiveness and family.

There are a lot of scriptures proving this and explaining why these things are good for us. A good read would be "Basics Of Faith" by Derek Prince (3 books).

I hope I could answer most of your questions with this.


D2Junkie,

there is no war, and I in particular have not been flinging mud. You should be a bit more careful here! This discussion is about truth, and unlike you seem to think that is no contradiction to love.

[VANGUARD]

what? I don't have a point? oh wait, yeah, lots of points.  

has anyone read the topic? It's to not waste time on this. I'm partially to blame. I was hoping to have a discussion about not wasting time on foolish things, and not worry about any "end of the world" stuff, which most don't think will end anytime real soon.
And also to spend time with people you love, and not dwell on small things. Look into the future so to speak, to continue to grow with others.
I was hoping to have maybe some people like what I said, maybe it will help some people. I don't know. I love this girl. I can't think of leaving her even though she had hurt me. I know she likes me. maybe love one day. she wants to take it slow and not rush into things. I like that about her, and even though it hurts to just be friends, I don't want to end something because I am hurt, when I believe there is something great down the road.

I guess I just thought the message would help, and a few pages later, it's people talking about how to be Christian, and who isn't, and why one isn't Christan, and why they are. Back and forth, back and forth, etc etc.
Yikes.

[Matthew]

We call that Confirmation, karx. And I don't see anywhere in there where you're required to tell people they're wrong.