Topic: [Locked] Something to think about

[Canceler]

If IHateHackers is a christian, and given how far he has gone already, I think it is time to seriously remind him in whos realm he is moving with that.

I read it over a few times and changed my mind. Technically it is closely related with personal attacks, because it does concern the person, but with a few proof-reads it's not unfounded.

I have seen so often what IHateHackers is doing here. When people don't like to hear something, but cannot counter it with good arguments, they start and try to discredit their "adversary" on a personal level.

Indeed, this is textbook ad hominem. I really wish people were forced to study and review logic and rhetoric through all years of post-primary school.

It's not about proving or disproving anything. It's about respecting others, plain and simple. ... You're just as disrespectful now as you have ever been, and frankly I'm ashamed to call myself a member of the same group of people as you.

Following your ad hominem strategy to the bitter end, it seems. For the record, ad hominem = disrespect. Karx did not make this mistake, you did.

Canceler and karx both, I'm not sure why you both seem to lump personal beliefs and opinions of others belief in the same word.

Opinions of others beliefs is a personal belief. And when it comes to objective truth-claims, mutually exclusive beliefs don't mix. When one is put forward that conflicts with mine, I have as much right to argue with it as the first person does to state it.

According to karx himself, yes there is a legitimate problem with that.

No, as far as I can tell Karx and I have BOTH been arguing FOR free statement of personal belief...because we believe that some other beliefs are wrong, and that is the type of belief he's been stating.

Why do I need to prove my claim? Indeed, how does one prove that?

I forgot what the claim was already, but seriously, you don't think you need to offer support for otherwise hollow claims?

Where do you think Christianity came from? It split off from Catholicism. Division and strife.

Christianity came from Christ. Catholicism shot off from Christianity, adulterated with rituals and rites that the original authors of the New Testament never professed. The protestant reformation was the movement that brought the original message of Christ back into the world from the secrecy where the Catholic Clergy had been hiding it. The strife came from the Clergy hating the fact that they were losing power and control over the minds and hearts of the ignorant, who were then returning to the light of the true Gospel.

Preaching to those who will not listen achieves nothing. A point I keep making that you keep ignoring.

Indeed, you don't seem to listen to much of anything. I had hoped otherwise, but alas, this is the result.

[VANGUARD]

holy cow!!!!!!! and no pun intended, I'm gone a couple hours and there's at least one or two pages already. WOW!!!!!!

I only skimmed though some of it.

What Bettina said was not offensive. She did nothing wrong. Whomever replied, came off a bit rude.

I am Christian, as most know by now. I think it was IHateHackers that said we shouldn't force God into their throats, or something along those lines. I agree. We shouldn't. We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.
If they wish to know, that's another story.

I can talk about almost anything, and I don't instantly become enemies with people who may not be Christian. Especially on here. We're people behind a computer screen.

I may read what all of you have been typing out. wow, still cant believe it's been at least a good page and a half in a short amount of time.

I believe God will do the right thing. I want out more than anything. Who knows. Maybe God will change someones heart and I will be a-ok there. I don't know. I thought that my truck would just go back to Wells Fargo, and that's the end of it. Well, today, someone is interested and will pay me on Friday when they're back in town, someone from work.

[Matthew]

"Born again?"

Clearly you and I are not of the same denomination. I've never heard that term used to describe a christian. Which certainly might explain some of our differences.

Canceler, if karx is arguing for free statement, why did he say he was "fed up with Bettina spreading her beleifes everywhere"? That was the part that really got me fired up.

Karx you can think of me what you will, I have nothing against your beliefs.

[Canceler]

We shouldn't go around and try to get others to believe in God.

You're a nice guy, I can tell. You believe this because you mean no harm or insult to others. But unfortunately, you are mistaken on this point. After obtaining salvation, you really have no other purpose left on this earth other than to become a Fisher Of [wo]Men. Why oh why would God allow us to remain in suffering on a fallen world if we are not meant to take up our Great Commission - to "go, and make disciples of all nations"? I have often felt that, as my place is now secured in God's Kingdom, that I have no further use for this world--and I don't. I am here not to acquire gain for myself, but to do the work that our Lord has laid out before me, and increase the glory of His Kingdom through proclaiming His truth. As hard as it is, it does involve persuasive argumentation.

Canceler, if karx is arguing for free statement, why did he say he was "fed up with Bettina spreading her beleifes everywhere"? That was the part that really got me fired up.

I forgot about that statement. I didn't take it the same way you did though. Firstly, the reason I believe Karx is arguing for freedom of expression is because he calls you out for denying his. Now about this quote, I took it not to mean that he wants to revoke her right to state her beliefs, but rather he's fed up with people always allowing beliefs such as hers to go unchecked, and that whenever someone does try to rebut them, they get attacked as a hostile (I've observed this happening almost every time a rebuttal is made, not just on PD but anywhere really). That, I think, is where Karx's frustration comes from. If I had said those words, it would have been a mistake of not being clear on what I meant. I only hope I'm assessing Karx accurately.

[VANGUARD]

This has really took a different turn, I'll say.

In a nutshell, it went like this. Bettina said something to me. I replied tactfully. Whether anything or everything is wrong with what she believes in, someone started to break into it and told her, her faults.

And then all of this. Why? I mean, really? I love God. Bettina may not, or only Jesus. Does it make sense to me? No. But I am not on her case. I am not telling her, her faults. I am not preaching things to her and trying to correct her.

Someone did though, and then all of this happened. That's why some said "PM each other" if both desire to do so. If it's fine, and you wish to keep it up, be my guest. I won't be offended. I'm just a little bit surprised all of this happened.

update: Canceler, we all have a reason to be on this earth. To work unto the Lord, to worship Him, to follow Him. God never granted happiness here on earth, or the easy way out. I lost my dad, house, car, job, all in one years time, or two. I still love God. He knows what is best for me. I still find Him amazing, and could never think of leaving Him. I know you're not saying I should though. Just making a point. I know that being with God, despite hard times, is far better than not being with God.
And it shows true love, doesn't it? To go through hard times and still turn to the Father.

[Matthew]

That's all well and good, canceler, but I'm sure she's heard it a million times before. If she doesn't want to listen, let her be. If you want to preach, go do it to people who will listen.

EDIT: Whatever, forget it. This is an argument that won't be won by anybody.

[VANGUARD]

That's all well and good, canceler, but I'm sure she's heard it a million times before. If she doesn't want to listen, let her be. If you want to preach, go do it to people who will listen.

EDIT: Whatever, forget it. This is an argument that won't be won by anybody.

I think I came to that conclusion a while back actually

People believe what they wish to, right or wrong. And I am sure I may believe in things that are wrong, or not believe in things that I should believe in. No one is perfect. No one.

[Matthew]

I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.

[VANGUARD]

someone gave me a powerup. maybe that was a mistake  

I gave you a powerup.

I got my first power down a long time ago. no idea why. sort of suprised it's still at -1. but I am sure it will change soon.

[Matthew]

I gave you a powerup for handling this better than all 3 of us combined.

[VANGUARD]

thank you. I do what I can.

[karx-elf-erx]

I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.

You're welcome. You have worked hard to earn it. Keep it civil, and it won't happen again. Nothing against controversial arguments, but personal attacks means carrying things to far. Don't worry though, I got a powerdown here too before you got yours, and I have an idea who awarded it to me.

Don't have the right to be fed up by Bet spreading a philosophy that deeply contradicts what I value and appreciate most? Don't I have the right to say that? Does that mean I am denying her the right to do it? Certainly not. It did however inspire me to finally say something about her opinions.

You don't see the things as they are happening, you are seeing them distorted through your preconceptions.


Canceler,

you are a nice guy (maybe too nice). You are trying to see good where there is none, at least when looking at this thread. I would never try to flatter someone who has misbehaved as much as IHateHackers here has just to appease him. The best such people will get is my attempts to bring them back to reason by staying calm and presenting good arguments, which was a waste of time in this case though (like in a few others).

I hope someone takes his time to split this thread and clean it up for Vanguard.

[VANGUARD]

you have a right. I would have picked a PM though. I don't get into it much, but I suppose that's what I'd do.

I don't give anyone powerdowns. not even spammers. that's me though.

[Matthew]

I just noticed somebody gave me my first power-down. Classy, Karx.

You're welcome. You have worked hard to earn it. Keep it civil, and it won't happen again. Nothing against controversial arguments, but personal attacks means carrying things to far. Don't worry though, I got a powerdown here too before you got yours, and I have an idea who awarded it to me.

Don't have the right to be fed up by Bet spreading a philosophy that deeply contradicts what I value and appreciate most? Don't I have the right to say that? Does that mean I am denying her the right to do it? Certainly not. It did however inspire me to finally say something about her opinions, and against them.

You don't see the things as they are happening. You see them distorted through your preconceptions.

So it's OK for you to be fed up with her for stating hers, but for anybody (me) to fed up with you for the same is wrong?

Keep it civil? I'm not even going to touch that one.

Distorted preconceptions? I assure you I had no conceptions about you prior to this conversation. I just don't see why it's so hard for you to live and let live.

Just read your edit. Could you be a little more self-righteous?

[VANGUARD]

no point in touching it. I use to get so into politics, and spiritual/religious stuff, going back and forth. I keep more to myself now. People believe what they want to believe in, whether it be right or wrong.