Topic: [Locked] Something to think about

[karx-elf-erx]

Deidel, Bet, both of you, drop it. It's not worth arguing over

I am not arguing about anything. It's the truth that sets people free, and if nobody dares telling Beth the truth about her beliefs and attitude, she will hardly get a chance to start questioning them herself.

Since this thread has had its share of faith related postings already, I cannot see a problem posting more of that here.

[D2Disciple]

EDIT: I really don't have a problem with a discussion, it's just the delivery. I feel it's out of place here and nonconstructive. There is a fine line between encouraging someone to back up and assess their position and personally de-constructing what someone believes. Remember - we are on a forum about a computer game. If she's open to a discussion, send a PM. That's all I ask. Previous mention of spiritual beliefs were in encouragement of Vanguard's decision to make a job change; I appreciate your willingness to share your beliefs and to discourage Bettina from separating Jesus from the Biblical God, but perhaps here on a Descent forum your post comes off as heavy-handed.

[karx-elf-erx]

Excuse me that I took the liberty to reply to her publicly posted comment (which actually was an offense) in public.

[D2Disciple]

See my post above.

[Bettina]

Scyphi and D2Junkie.
 
You both have my sincere apologies. I should have ignored the comments and stayed focused on Vanguard because seriously he worries me. The last few of his posts seem less about venting and more about major depression and I have always liked the guy. This has nothing to do with whether you believe in God or not but more about helping a friend.

Mentally, I've been where Vanguard seems to be now, and I've received enormous help (and still do) from talking with my hospital chaplain - and although I'm an agnostic, I'm also a Christian and I'm going to stand by what I said to Vanguard. Everything else I apologize for.

Vanguard, please talk with someone.

Bettina

[VANGUARD]

I don't think Bettina did anything wrong. She just believes in something different than me, or in some cases, doesn't believe in what I do. But she gave advice, like many on here.
I think the reply to Bettina wasn't really necessary.
I know, some of us love and honor God. Some of us, even me, can't believe sometimes how anyone can not see how great God is. But, it's their choice. If they choose to go that path, so be it. If they wish to seek help, advice, whatever, then I hope and pray someone is there to lead them into the right decision.

D2Junkie is basically dead on,


edit/update: thanks Bettina. I may talk with the boss today, see what is going on. I plan to talk with more, my girl friend, maybe this guy friend if he is feeling better. maybe another if he isn't too busy.

[D2Disciple]

All is well, Bettina  

I'm not upset with either you or Karx because this sort of discussion happens sometimes. Politics and religion, so they say. I'm just trying to remind everyone that A: Vanguard is in need of good advice, of which I think we all have given, especially both yourself and Karx, and B: This is a Descent forum.  

INSERT: My apologies if I came across too harshly myself. I certainly hope I did not make it sound as if your input was unwelcome, Bet. It most certainly is welcome.

[VANGUARD]

is it safe to assume all is okay? I don't think I need to say much more. One day, I may have an answer. But I believe I got plenty of advice, a lot pointing in the same direction. I take each persons advice into consideration, and appreciate it all.
Sorry for making anyone nervous or worried about me. I am still alive. I know in a week, if less, I will probably know what is going on.

So, thanks again all, and hope all is well on your side.

[karx-elf-erx]

You cannot be an agnostic and a christian.

People, quite a few of you here are christians, and you don't have anything to say to that? This is not about proving oneself right and others wrong, this is about Beth being on a perilous path, and all you have to say "All is well!"

C'mon! What are you concerned about? Your being well received by everybody? You should be salt and light, and when the salt has lost its taste, it's worthless and will be cast on the ground.

D2Junkie, you weren't concerned about religious posts here before. What has changed? That now there's a conflict? I don't know whether you are a christian, but (maybe not even) if so, you should understand that the word of God will bring conflict, because it is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)

If you don't want religious posts here, then it's ok for me, but then please apply to all those and not arbitrarily or due to a judgment that is rooted dubious motivation. And please don't think I have a desire to strike at Beth because she has upset me. That's not the case. My words may seem harsh - unless you read them in the light of scriptural truth, and telling someone unconvenient truths doesn't necessarily mean being out to hurt someone.

[Canceler]

i know i'm just randomly jumping in here, but i read all the posts . Vanguard i fully back your inclinations to leave the job, you seem pretty decided on that already and i have faith that our Lord will bear you through this, plus whatever else may be weighing down on you at this time.

on a side note, i never thought i'd see the day when i would be fully behind something Karx said, but i am today :O actually this whole discussion makes me yearn for a "Deep Discussion" board where philosophical topics can be discussed and arguments (in the classical sense) can be held. it'd have to be exclusive, sort of like the NHB board on DescentBB but for philosophers (where posting privileges are revoked for flamers, and granted again for good behavior). i almost want to go make a poll.

also, edit:

You cannot be an agnostic and a christian.

i was leaning this exact way until i remembered the definition of a Christian: one who places his/her faith in that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; and an agnostic is a person who says "we cannot know if there is a God" (or "do not know"). Since faith does not require knowledge, all that is requried is that Beth trusts the fundamental theological truth-claims of the Bible, not that she believes they can be known in the epistemological sense. Perhaps we can have "common knowledge" of God where prima-facie reasoning glazes over relatively small fissures of ignorance, but when you get right down to it, it kind of is a matter of what one decides to believe without really knowing one way or another.

[Matthew]

I almost find it hard to believe that even a tiny spark of debate is drawing such reactions. I would hope that as a community we're close enough that we can have a difference of opinion without it meaning that we're suddenly enemies. I take an extremely tolerant view on religions, but the one I cannot stand is those that thump their holy book of choice. It's one thing to respectfully promote your religion, but to blatantly call someone else's beliefs wrong is, well... wrong, and quite rude.

I found nothing wrong with Bettina's post, but Karx definitely came off as being rude to me. She could be a paganist for all I care, she's offering sincere advice from the heart, and that's one of the best things a person can do for another.

Now then... Can't we all just get along?

EDIT: Karx, it's not the fact that we're having a religious discussion, it's the fact that you're attacking Bettina's beliefs. Frankly, Bettina comes across as being a far nicer person than you are, and if she wants to think her way, let her. It seems to be working fine for her, which is more than I can say for you. A person's beliefs are their own business, and nobody else's. Who are we mere humans to say what's wrong and what's wrong?

[karx-elf-erx]

Canceler,

what you are saying about being agnostic contradicts scripture.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Heb. 1:11, King James)

Thus having faith means knowing that there is a God. Even if you would set the scripture aside, logic would tell you that you can only have faith in something you know exists, which by definition the agnostic does not.

And how do you want to separate Jesus from the God of the Bible? He is the God of the Bible!


IHateHackers,

I take you are not a christian. Christian faith by it's nature is exclusive. Now you are free to believe what you want to, and free to express your beliefs. But so are christians, and if there is a contradiction in beliefs, you need to at least bear the tension coming from that. What you however are doing is to deny others (me) the right to express my beliefs here.

As far as Beth is concerned: Her beliefs are a mixture of complete antagonisms and hence a failure of logic, and that is what I am pointing out. So to resolve this logical conflict she'd either need to say "I am agnostic" or "I am a christian", but not both, and that is what I have been trying to prove using scripture.

Sure does Beth come across nicer than I do, because she caters to your sight of the world, while I don't necessarily do (actually she tries to cater to everybody, telling the one side "Hey, I am agnostic" and the other side "Hey, I am a christian"; which tells me that she probably doesn't really know (yet) who and/or what she wants to be and believe). I prefer being approved by God over being approved by men though, and I am actually having peace about what I have posted here so far. What you don't seem to understand is that beliefs do not just exist - they have an influence on their surroundings, and I am not happy about the influence beliefs like Bettina's has on others.

Most people - including christians - are more concerned about being loved by their peers (and possibly everybody) than standing for their convictions. I am not trying to offend anybody here, but I will express my convictions if I see fit, and I will tell people when they went too far (like Beth with her initial comment directed at me, which is a foul and disgusting way of trying to drag all the crap from earlier days and other places in here for the simple purpose to discredit me and saving her the effort of having to deal with a critical point of view on her beliefs).

[Canceler]

Thus having faith means knowing that there is a God. Even if you would set the scripture aside, logic would tell you that you can only have faith in something you know exists, which by definition the agnostic does not.

And how do you want to separate Jesus from the God of the Bible? He is the God of the Bible!

The epistemological definition of knowledge is a belief backed by hard evidence. It IS possible to have faith without any of that kind of evidence. Many Christians the world around have been made by missionaries' testimonies alone. An agnostic says "we do not (or cannot) know if there is a God". Taken in the epistemological sense, the phrase "we cannot know" means there is not sufficient hard evidence to deductively prove God's existence or non-existence. Technically, then, it is possible to believe the truth-claims of the Bible without asserting that they can be deductively proven.

However, it is non-sensical to believe in the divinity of Jesus but not the Biblical God, since at every turn Jesus confirmed Scripture's theology.

It's one thing to respectfully promote your religion, but to blatantly call someone else's beliefs wrong is, well... wrong, and quite rude.

I believe it's right to tell someone their beliefs are wrong, if there is reason that contradicts their belief. Look to your own sentence to realize the logically inescapable nature of mutually exclusive truth claims. If you believe it's wrong to say someone else is wrong, then you must say that I'm wrong about my contrary belief, thus contradicting your own. It's a self-defeating point of view, and I encourage you to abandon it for a self-evident one, which, given only one alternative possibility, is mine. I mean this out of honest concern for your intellectual growth, I do not want to offend. If any of my comments get under your skin, please take a moment to consider the truth of my claims and the logical strength of my line of inference before saying I am insulting you.

I found nothing wrong with Bettina's post, but Karx definitely came off as being rude to me.

My personal analysis (I'm putting it here only because I believe I have something constructive to contribute):
Karx's initial comments against Bettina's philosophical outlook were his own assessment thereof, and may have been uninvited, but if you really look hard enough, you will not see any personal attacks. Bettina's direct response to that was pretty much a textbook ad hominem. I think people get bad vibes from Karx a lot (I know I did a lot) because he is more concerned with the truth than anyone's feelings, and can come across as a bit over-zealous when searching for it through (honest) argumentation. Honestly, though, after studying the fundamentals of philosophy and formal logic, I have much greater respect for Karx and would probably be acting the same way.

[karx-elf-erx]

Canceler,

Heb. 11:1 says that (christian, spiritual) faith is the evidence itself.

I know that I can be so concerned about finding the truth that it can carry me away, but I think I have learned a lot in that regard in the past years and with all the (often negative) feedback I have gotten, and I think I have managed to convey my sight of the issue without being offensive or rude. I am also absolutely not the person to avoid unconvenient truths, and I have stood a lot of criticism in my life where other people have approached me later on and have told me they would have run from the situation as far as they could had they been in my skin.

The gospel however is an offense to many people (it states that itself), and that is something I cannot change.

And again: If religious discussion is not welcome here, I will respect that, but then it must be applied to all such posts, and not just to those the/some forum mods/admins do not feel comfortable about.

[Matthew]

That's where you're wrong canceller. I am a christian. And nowhere in the bible does it ever tell me "Force your beliefs on others". If you can find me god says that's right, be my guest and correct me.

There is difference between telling you that it is wrong to do ana ction to soneone else and telling you that your beliefs are wrong and that you must do this and believe this or you are on a "perilous path" (in other words that you're going to tell).

Karx, there is no "logic" in religion, because religion is entirely based on belief and folklore. If belief is the evidence, then not believing is evidence that it doesn't exist. Where is your logic now?

I'm not saying the gospel is offensive, nobody here is. What is offensive is trying to force it on somebody else. Does their belief affect you negatively?