Topic: Descent clone

[karx-elf-erx]

Miner Wars has more "core structures" in place than the ODF project. It has a working game engine with graphics, effects, physics, lighting, and some economy (ore mining).

Maybe your sight is a bit distorted by your preconception?

[Foil]

Miner Wars has more "core structures" in place than the ODF project. It has a working game engine with graphics, effects, physics, lighting, and some economy (ore mining).

True.

But I'm looking at the amount of development compared to the scope of the project (e.g. it's supposed to be a highly online-dependent MMO... but they haven't yet shown even a hint of online connectivity).

Under that measure, MW just doesn't cut it.  Particularly not for a project they're already asking people to invest in and pre-purchase.

P.S. Preconception?  I was initially as excited about Miner Wars as anyone.

Listen, I'm not telling anyone they have to share my opinion, I'm simply stating it.

[Matthew]

So what you're saying is that because they have big dreams, even though they have more core structure than ODF, the project is doomed?

... Huh?

[Foil]

What?  No, that's not what I said at all.

I said that for a project with such a massive scope, the existing demo really doesn't show much.

Combine that with the overwhelming amount of fluff (that's exactly what all the splashy advertising/videos/screenshots/events/contests and promised-but-unseen features are), and it looks like a typical investment ploy.

IMHO: Once they have all the investment / pre-purchase $$ they can get, we won't see anything else out of Miner Wars.

Feel free to disagree with me, but until I see some real content rather than the fluff...

[karx-elf-erx]

Foil,

np with your opinion. But is there a problem discussing about the issue?

[Matthew]

A playable demo is most certainly content. What % of their total scope it covers is irrelevant.

[-<WillyP>-]

Well, the pre-alpha release was rather disappointing.  The non interactive demo they released a while back ran flawlessly and very smooth, but the pre-alpha stuttered even at greatly reduced settings, and crashed a few times.  Plus the fact that there isn't much you can do other than blast tunnels in the asteroids and harvest rock.

[Scyphi]

I may not be a development expert, so it's possible I may not know what I'm talking about, but fluff or not, it seems to me that Miner Wars has made more progress than ODF, furthermore, Miner Wars has gotten the attention of quite a lot of people (as was previously stated) while ODF is still fairly unknown (no one has given me a detailed description of said project as of yet, hint-hint ), plus Miner Wars is also in a position to showcase a fair bit of it's features already whereas with ODF, if they are in a position to do that, they haven't been doing it.

Not to ridicule either project, of course. I wish them both the best of luck and hope they BOTH are seen through to completion.

I suppose I do see Foil's point though, although I fail to see why he seems to think the chances of that rather worse-case scenario seems to be so high. As I see it, ODF is progressing, yes, but at a snail's pace, and the developers from what I understand is going on (if I'm wrong, I blame this on the fact that nobody seems to tell me much about ODF ) is struggling to keep it going, and the interest in it fresh. It sounds frighteningly similar to what happened to Project Pavilion (which, BTW, I hate bringing up again and again like this, makes me feel like a self-centered and nostalgic twit to be honest, but it's the best experience I have to draw off of), which quickly encountered similar issues, and was part of what ultimately led it to it's downfall (not to say ODF is doomed with the same fate, of course. Personally, looking back, I think Project Pavilion was doomed to begin with, whereas ODF stands a much better chance. They've actually got WORK done on it, for crying out loud, something Project Pavilion couldn't really profess ). Miner Wars seems to be the complete opposite from ODF, though. It has the experienced software development team, the financing, the public support, the game engine they THEMSELVES built, the ability to market it what they have already which they've clearly been succeeding at despite whatever arguments one might have about the wisdom and ethics of it, and I KNOW that they have at least one or two people participating in Miner Wars that participated in the development of Descent itself. All of that are some pretty dang impressive accomplishments, regardless of whatever faults one might see. I suppose if Miner Wars was only just some elaborate swindling scheme from the beginning what Foil says might be true, but I highly doubt it. There's too much evidence to suggest otherwise.

Now I'm not saying any of this to frustrate anyone or cause problems, at least, that certainly isn't my intent. And I respect what Foil has stated as his honest opinion about Miner Wars. However, I don't think he sees our opinions about the aforementioned, otherwise the subject wouldn't keep coming up, and he wouldn't be so defensive about it. Of course, we haven't always helped either, as looking back we've all been pretty defensive for Miner Wars ourselves, and to be perfectly fair, Foil didn't start the discussion on this topic this time around. He just jumped in when it came up. Probably felt his opinions were being threatened and felt it necessary to defend them. Like when Karx gets riled up when someone ridicules D2X-XL (no offense, Karx, I know you've gotten a lot of crap about that and are thereby justified in acting like that at times).

So, my point? I dunno, I guess I'm just trying to get people to see both sides of the issue as I see it, to hopefully to try and stop this...disagreement...from getting out of hand, which it hopefully never will, but hey...

Also, and this is completely and utterly off topic and probably a poor time to bring it up to boot, but seeing that I no doubt will already have Foil's attention by this point for whatever reasons, I would also like to remind him of the existence of a certain Descent Fan Ficition which would greatly enjoy his presence there if and when he can find the time.

[Foil]

Foil,

np with your opinion. But is there a problem discussing about the issue?

Of course not; I never said there was any problem.  What aspect do you want to discuss?

I suppose I do see Foil's point though, although I fail to see why he seems to think the chances of that rather worse-case scenario seems to be so high.

That's fine.  Again, I'm not asking anyone to share my opinion; I'm simply stating my perspective, which is based on my own experience.

...I respect what Foil has stated as his honest opinion about Miner Wars. However, I don't think he sees our opinions about the aforementioned, otherwise the subject wouldn't keep coming up, and he wouldn't be so defensive about it.

Not trying to be defensive, and I completely understand the hopeful perspective (remember, I shared that perspective until recently). 

I'm simply trying to clarify my view, as it's been misconstrued multiple times in this thread.  I'm also simply responding to people who have been specifically addressing me in their posts.

...I would also like to remind him of the existence of a certain Descent Fan Ficition which would greatly enjoy his presence there if and when he can find the time.

Thanks for the reminder. 

Life is starting to slow down a very tiny bit for me, so I may be able to get back there sometime.

[Kaiaatzl]

Descent Fan Fiction... that reminds me, Xaihyv and I have completely forgotten about the Descent II Thingy... we need to get back into that.  Right now we're getting more ambitious and considering a machinima comedy.  But seeing as we don't know how we could do that (knowing how to enable free-camera in XL could help a bit, but we'd still need to control for all the robots (especially the evil guidebot)), we may be aiming a bit too high.

[karx-elf-erx]

CTRL+ALT+S

[Kaiaatzl]

Thanks

[d3jake]

It seems that folks could use some clarification as to what the ODF project is exactly. Hopefully I can shed some light on the topic.

For those that don't know me, I am the project leader for Flight Back, currently named "syzygy" during the development process. I started plans for syzygy during the Spring of 2009, writing plans for a week before writing any code.

Background on the Open Descent Foundation can be found here. I won't waste time retyping that. The goal of our main project is to create a new Descent-like game, but compatible with currently existing levels. We want to provide access to the treasure trove of existing levels, but also create an environment in which we can expand visually, including newer features of modern graphics adapters. Although this is our end goal, we're starting small and basic.We likely won't have fancy particle effects, or real-time-this-or-that, but we aim for a stable game to be released, and then we can worry about going back through and adding in features that aren't 100% necessary for gameplay.

It seems that due to our lack of videos\screenshots\etc folks don't know much about the project... I believe that some folks have touched on this a few times in speculation, but I can confirm it: Due to the number of Descent-like projects that have come along, and ended up in the garbage heap, as a development team we have decided to hold off on drumming up publicity until we actually have something playable.

From what I've gathered from this thread, Miner Wars has made it a point to release a couple of demos for folks to play. One that was unplayable, more of a sit-and-watch deal; and one that one could actually play around in. That's great for them, I applaud their progress, and their willingness to throw "into the wild" what they've accomplished. This is not the route that the ODF has chosen to go. For the reasons listed above, we will consider releasing some sort of demo after we have major features in place. We may decide to release a "blues and concs" netgame version once we are that far along. This way the demo is an actual playable demo. Plus, it'll give folks a chance to fight in an environment where you only have basic lasers, and dumb-fire missiles. The goal is to not drum up interest before there is something to be interested in, possibly wasting time that we could be programming.

As it has been mentioned, and I'll fully agree with it: Our progress on the project is slow. Very slow, so slow that if a snail were to pass it, our project would yell at it to stop speeding. This is a byproduct of the fact that currently our development team consist of three individuals: King_Lo, D_Cent, and myself. I am currently mired in a college semester from heck, thus cutting down my programming time to zero.
King_Lo has been working on netcode. He's made it a point to plan in find detail how the netcode shall work before doing programming. THankfully he has also gotten a chance to do some proof-of-concept programming seperate from the game, before he worries about implementing the netcode into the game itself.
D_Cent has written a "dynamic GUI system" that had a similar version implemented into D321GO!!. This allows us to make changes to our GUI system without needing to recompile our game. He is starting the work of implementing the system into the main game within the next few days.
When I had free time, back in August...., I was working on getting all physics-related things up and running. As

this video

can demonstrate, we have 6DoF movement working, and basic powerup pickups. Between that and weapons fire, I was rather enjoying the work.

We welcome volunteers! Although we could use developers the most, anyone who has skills that may be useful to the project are welcome! As I said before, we are working to provide the ability to play D1\2\3 levels, however we do have a member of our team remodeling current levels to improve them. "improve" is such a fague term, so what do I mean with that? Generally it's been to take sections that are low poly, and add details. We're not going overboard, but between this, and using textures from the Nexuiz project, the results are impressive. I'd post a picture of what I am talking about, but although improvements have been made to the level, I would like to give our modeler (one of two) a chance to complete more of the level so we can get a better idea of what it will look like.

That theory sounds a bit familiar, doesn't it?

Just because it was touched on so many times, I want to explain our position.
Our project is almost invisible. We don't generally go around pasting demos\pictures\videos everywhere. Quite frankly what we have currently isn't a whole lot to write to mom about. Our development is slow, but at the rate that 6DoF games are being brought to market (read: none). We believe that we have enough time to do things right. It would take extra time out of our already stressed development time to create cool videos constantly, and therefore it's not a priority. We want to make sure that our development does it "right" If that means that through our personal schedules, and developmental choices it takes us another year or two that's alright.

Descent 1 and 2 have had the chance to see improvements with the release of their source code, and the hard work of karx, and zico. Descent 3 has not been so lucky, and there are many signs that features needed to be dropped because of deadlines. Also, lack of proper support for the Linux and Mac platforms are problematic. We want to create a free, multi-platform-friendly game for all to enjoy. Since we believe that we have the best chance to succeed compared to previous projects at this goal, we want to "get it right the first time." We have one chance to make a release and garner respect and support for further development. That will not be gained by rushing the project along.

I mean not to "call anyone out", or poke fun at anyone. This is our view on things, and hopefully this helps explain our objectives and methods. Thank you.

-[RIP]d3jake

[karx-elf-erx]

I wish you had chosen to modify a good current 3D engine (personally I am favoring the UE3 engine; read more about this here). If you had, I would have seriously considered joining your team. Creating yet another graphics engine in my opinion is a complete waste of time though (and a tremendous effort if you want it to look at least halfway up to scratch; actually it is such a huge task that I believe it is doomed to fail already - so much more as you have so little time and are progressing so slowly: It is foreseeable that once you're out of uni, that'll be pretty likely it).

Being able to use the existing Descent 1/2 levels is not a very good argument either for doing so in my eyes. Most of these levels are crap (I have sifted through all on PD and some others for my level spotlight). Personally, I am longing for the proven Descent formula in new, shiny clothes. To be honest, seeing people build yet another vanilla D1 or D2 level makes me either fall instantly asleep due to boredom or feel like throwing up. I have seen that crap for 15 years, and I cannot see it anymore.

I am sorry if this sounds like I am trying to discourage you. I am not. I am however trying to be realistic and (although that may be unrealistic) direct your ambition to where there is at least a chance of it bearing fruit.

[-<WillyP>-]

It's true, if you think your busy with school now, when you go out in the real world and start a career,  you'll wish you had all the free time you had in school.  Unless you are planning to be a part time school bus driver.    I don't know about one engine or another but there was good progress made using the Doom 3 engine, seems a shame that project went belly up...