Topic: Miners Wars Beta

[Matthew]

I guess I don't see how paying 10$ (less than the monthly subscription of almost every MMO in existence) for permanent access to the game and any subsequent updates is a one-way-deal. Even if the project goes under in a year, they say they expect online play in the enxt few weeks. A week of access to an MMO, even a pre-alpha of an MMO (which has a lot of the promise features already, btw) is a damn good deal to me. You can't expect free access to an MMO, it's just not practical for an upstart company. SE can do it because they are an old company with significant business. The miner wars team has literally nothing apart from what they get for this.

Also, your unfortunate personal dispute with the developer has little to do with the game itself. although I'll admit it might've been a little immature.

[Foil]

I have seen some of the source, and the game has a working foundation. There's also been an early playable version where you can fly around and shoot stuff (including asteroids). The engine is there, and some smart ideas have gone into it.

After multiple years of development and all they have is an offline graphics engine + ship + asteroids?  Sorry, but that's not "playable" in any sense of the word.

For an MMO, I'd call that a "proof of concept" at best.

...they say they expect online play in the enxt few weeks.

Ha, they gotta be kidding.

Tell you what.  If they release a playable online version anytime in the next year, I will let the PD community pick a horrifically embarrassing method of apology for me to do.  (But it's not gonna happen.) 

[Matthew]

Foil, you have to walk before you can run. They're still fine-tuning their engine, which is what they've spent "years" making. What good is online play without a stable engine? Online play is a lot more complicated than clicking a few buttons. Making an entire physics engine from scratch is not exactly a "that's all?" thing. It's not a proof of concept, it's a base. A strong one at that.

I have already started thinking of your apology methods.

[karx-elf-erx]

Foil,

point taken, and I cannot contradict you.

I am also asking myself whether all of their programmers are up to such a task. There's a difference between an experienced and highly qualified professional, and a novice programmer or enthusiastic uni student (sure, some of them are very good, but they are probably already working elsewhere).

Matthew,

I wonder how much expertise you are having here. Building the engine should be the smallest part - with a good team that knows what it does. The bulk of the work should be content and infrastructure (networking, databases, community management, payment handling, ...) So having spent years just on the engine isn't exactly encouraging.

24 months just to get the engine up to scratch is too much in my opinion (and technically speaken it is by far not bleeding edge - it can't be, given MW targets the XBox, too). The problem is that most of the development work has been done by the lead developer, and that he had been rebuilding the engine as a C#/XNA Game Studio solution. And XNA Game Studio is being advertised as an entry level tool.

Sorry if this sounds like I am trying to be negative. I don't. I am just pointing out facts. If the MW team proves me wrong so much the better.

Btw, with "one-way deal" I was referring to the request to share site referrals and give feedback. I was about to purchase the pre-alpha, because I can easily afford to waste 10 Euros in the hope the investment would pay and because I like the idea of Minerwars, but I couldn't. I have however to say that I don't like the graphical presentation of the game too much yet. The asteroids look bland, and there's too much dust and fog for my taste. There's too little genuine style and detail (just compared to the Clone Wars CGI movies - these have such a unique and distinctive look and design (even apart from the typical Starwars design). The game looks horribly generic and uninspired. I have come to prefer slightly stylized, great looking designs over realistic ones. There are so many games with super realistic graphics out there. But sure, gameplay >> graphics.

[Foil]

I have already started thinking of your apology methods.

Think away, be creative!

In a year, we'll come back to this.

The problem is that most of the development work has been done by the lead developer, and that he had been rebuilding the engine as a C#/XNA Game Studio solution. And XNA Game Studio is being advertised as an entry level tool.

They're using XNA Game Studio?  Heh, that's hardly the "engine from scratch" they're advertising.

[karx-elf-erx]

I cannot agree with that. It somewhat helps getting a basic structure, but that doesn't make a game engine at all - particularly one with features like Minerwars. The asteroid implementation is a very nice one, regarding both geometry and texture handling aspects. I love the elegance of the approach chosen for it. XNA Game Studio is also a pretty logical choice if you are targetting the XBox.

Foil, please - you are appearing a bit over-zealously negative.

I think throwing 10 Euros at the Minerwars people for the alpha isn't a bad investment. They're not just pretending something in order to make a lot of money. They have taken quite some risk themselves, and of course they may be reaching for straws. If they manage to keep their project floating it might however turn into quite a cool and original game. So imo the potential gain is much higher than the potential loss.

[Foil]

Foil, please - you are appearing a bit over-zealously negative.

I'm not trying to be over-zealous.  I'm "calling it as I see it", simply because I see more fluff and fund-raising than actual content.

Everyone can disagree with me, of course.

[karx-elf-erx]

Did you ever try the interactive test, or the pre-alpha?

If you didn't you probably should, before spreading more FUD.

In case I sound like an MW agent: I am not. I am just trying to be as objective as I can, and I am giving the MW team the benefit of the doubt.

[Pumo]

Well, both sides had a valid point, but I also think that the MW team is doing a solid project that will be feasible as a complete game in a not so far future (unlike the old Core Decision that didn't go anywhere far).
Or, at least that's how it seems, and I hope so.

So, I also think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

It's good to be prepared for a deception (in that point I can agree with Foil), but being so partial is a bit unfair for the MW team.

[Matthew]

Well if they expect to have online play up in a few weeks, then clearly they are close to having working net code as well.

[Kaiaatzl]

...unlike the old Core Decision that didn't go anywhere far...

That's what I thought too, MW is a much more worthwile investment than that.  And they have got a lot of pre-alpha copies sold (and about a hundred good reviews of the pre-alpha circulating around on their site).
Imo this looks a lot more promising than Core Decision or Invasion (or any other Descent-like project).  They do have some pretty talented people on their team (who came on their own, without being asked), who apparently do see promise in the concept.  At least one of them even worked on D2 and Vertigo.

Considering all this, I don't think a scam seems likely at all, especially if it's supposed to be targeted at Descent players... wouldn't scammers have picked a bigger/more lucrative community?

[Matthew]

The fact that scam is even considered sickens me. They developed an entire working engine that you can fly around and blow stuff up in. From what I read it's pretty detailed in little things even. Hardly scam material.

[Scyphi]

Yeah, on this matter I'm with Karx on this one. The potential gain outweighs the potential loss. Foil, I'm rather shocked at you. Yes, you raise a fair point, but with such negativity, like there is no other possible outcome. And you are clearly refusing to see it any other way. You've very nearly sparked a flame war, too, for no good reason other than you felt we were all betting on something that wasn't going to come about, something none of us can really call at this point. It could fail, or it could succeed admirably, or it could do something in the middle. I personally am willing to wait and see. At the moment, Miner Wars looks promising, and like it'll pull through.

[karx-elf-erx]

Foil hasn't sparked a flame war at all - and if, then it wouldn't have been his fault. He has been sticking to facts as he sees them, giving them the weight he sees fit.

If anybody takes so much offense in that that he'd feel inclined to start a flame, then it would be the fault of that person, and that person alone.

-----------------------------

I am having trouble with the pre-alpha though I just bought and installed: When starting the game I was already logged in as "Diedel", but could neither start sandbox nor story play - the program tells me that I have no access rights to test build. So I logged out and tried to login with my Minerwars account ("karx11erx" and the proper password), but was told that I was using the wrong nick and/or password. So I tried "Diedel" again, but I am not sure what my password is, and I couldn't find a way to retrieve it via the game.

WTF?

[-<WillyP>-]

Foil hasn't sparked a flame war at all - and if, then it wouldn't have been his fault. He has been sticking to facts as he sees them, giving them the weight he sees fit.

If anybody takes so much offense in that that he'd feel inclined to start a flame, then it would be the fault of that person, and that person alone.

Well put, I agree.