Topic: If you're going to say something as a fact, support it first

[SaladBadger]

(note: this is NOT a bash thread. Please do not take it as one)

BTW, Note it's a D1 set and it works on all Descent 1 versions (even the old 1.5 for DOS)

This is the fact I'm getting at. This is of course a comment Pumo once made regarding darkflamewolf's "Descent Vignettes" project, a well designed project (though a little too far on the hard site).

See that suffix? Even the old 1.5 for DOS? Somehow I couldn't believe that. And I didn't. I slapped it into my DOS Descent 1.5 folder and fired 'er up. My experiences were interesting to say the least.

First of all my goal was to find both secret levels (as they are part of the experiment), and I did. Secret level 2 is where the experiment ended. The first couple of levels played fine. The software renderer glitched at several areas, but I don't care. It's prone to do that with any levels.

As the levels got more complicated, so did the issues. I found it very hard to play as DOS-4GW (horrible DOS extender, by the way. Ugh) would give me "Soft Page Faults" every 5-10 minutes or so, sometimes before I had a chance to save my game. This indicates there was little to no testing of the levels.

Then came Secret level 2. Every attempt to grab the blue key resulted in the generators starting, but then gameplay just stopped. It took several seconds to run the next frame and by then I'm lucky if the game hasn't pagefaulted by then. Several attempts to avoid the slowdown failed. The experiment failed. It was a long run, but it failed

So lets go back to the comment. It's obvious that the only backing behind this comment is the fact that it should work *in theroy*. There's a fine line between theroy and actually working though. DOS D1 is unstable. If you are going to make a comment like that, it's only natural that you would have evidence that it will work in DOS D1.

Another thing that gets me -- Rebirth. The levelset is described as being rebirth compatible, and it mostly is, thanks to Zico's dedication to fix the memory/stability issues of Descent (man Descent played nice but it's techinically a nightmare). And he did. Until the last level where a cube you must cross results in a crash under any circumstances. (Ok in D1 it runs into a memory leak, but in rebirth it crashes) This once again indicates that there was only very basic testing in Rebirth.

So what defines proper testing? Running a levelset through on all of the intended platforms. In this case, Rebirth and D2X-XL defined the platform for which this mod would be played on. This is a lot of work, but differences between the versions can result in issues. I can reasonably assume that the only development platform here was D2X-XL, judging from the screenshots and all of that.

(will I try the same experiment with Enemy Within and DOS D2? no. It just isn't worth it)

[Scyphi]

Interesting that you posted this here and not on DBB, where the comment appeared.

But anyway, not to argue you point, but I feel that I should point out that when Pumo made that comment, he was probably thinking of the original D1 played on the system it was originally intended for, not in a DOS Box (or something to that extent) simulator thingy, which I presume is what you were using (correct me if I'm wrong). Either way, sounds more like a system problem, and not so much a game problem.

As for your problem with Rebirth, I can't see why you got that. I admittedly have not played the level set in question all the way through (haven't had the time) but I know TechPro has, in fact, I watched him on more than one level, and I do believe he made it all the way through the set without incident, while using Rebirth.

Perhaps further testing is needed to figure this all out, eh?

[CrazyEnzo03]

I will have to fire up my older computer and see how well it works.  I usually do not like playing DOS descent on it though because I am horribly used to playing only in cockpit mode in D1 and D2 and the only way to get the game slow enough to play correctly is to amp up the resolution... which means I cannot use cockpit mode.  Doesn't really matter too much, though so I can give it a shot if I can remember.

Been a bit addicted to Fallout 3 as of late, though.

[karx-elf-erx]

What's the point of this other than to unnecessarily nitpick on a statement that hasn't any real significance as there are two source ports that allow you to play the mission, and probably nobody using D1 DOS 1.5 except for purely academic reasons, like proving Pumo wrong? Enzo, you earned yourself a bag of gumbears for pointing this critical issue out. Ask me about them next time we meet.

I guess Pumo's statement was rather about stressing that it was a true vanilla Descent 1 mission.

Btw, the original DOS D1 probably crashed so often because of the bugs in it. The mission actually is to the engine specs (afaik) - D1 isn't.

Guess how I know.

[SaladBadger]

and probably nobody using D1 DOS 1.5 except for purely academic reasons

I use it for non academic reasons. It's actually my primary development platform because the old DeViL editor only works well in DOS and it's annoying to switch from Dosbox -> Rebirth when I need to do a lot of little tests.

If there was a pure windows version of DeViL, I'm sure my usage of it would go down, but until then...

[karx-elf-erx]

But are you actually using it for regular Descent gaming?

DMB2/DLE-XP work quite different from DEVIL, but did you ever try using one of these?

[SaladBadger]

But are you using it for actual regular Descent gaming?

Sometimes. I'll use it when I really want to play oldschool (which is usually only just the stock levels -- I normally don't play any missions using it)

Other than that, I'm usually using Rebirth. especially when playing missions for the reasons outlined here

DMB2/DLE-XP work quite different from DEVIL, but did you ever try using one of these?

I have, but they don't really work with me. I guess part of the problem is from the fact I still haven't found decent documentation for them (the DMB2 help file was helpful in some cases, but not in every one. That online tutorial didn't help much, either)

[karx-elf-erx]

The online tutorial should at least given you something you can work your way on through DLE-XP, and you can ask questions about it in the DLE-XP area of the D2X-XL forum. The DLE-XP page of the D2X-XL home page has its own side scrolling menu with explanations of all (I hope) new features of DLE-XP.

[Scyphi]

DLE-XP does take some getting used to, even if you're already very familiar with the original DMB2, but it usually pays off in the end. It's actually a very nicely tuned editor.

Sure as heck easier to use than D3Edit.

[CrazyEnzo03]

I don't really know what I "pointed out".
I used to use 1.5 all the time when I still used my old computer.