Topic: So I've made a 6DoF game

[VANGUARD]

this game isn't Descent. Even if tri-chording was enabled, it's still not Descent.
Right? Or am I wrong? Is this game going to be D4, or another Descent expansion?

Also,

So people boast about tri-chording. Big deal. I still remember flying the Phoenix (fastest ship) and a Magnum (slowest) passed me by. Yeah, I don't know tri-chording at all. Did I find this unfair? You kidding? I played Descent online a LOT, most nights, especially when I was unemployed. Big deal if 99% of the players knew tri-chording and I didn't. It was FUN!

I still can understand those who DO tri-chord, and find it not available in this game that is being made. It's like going from a joystick with a HAT and tilt, etc, to just a keyboard and mouse. You won't be able to move the same way.
I get it, but even without my favorite joystick, I found a way to work it out, and it was fun! I have the game on Linux, can't get it to run though, but if I could, and games were still playing, I'm in. Tri-chording or not, I am in!

[Scyphi]

However, unlike others here, I have never denounced non-trichorders, or insinuated anything about their character, or called them names because I disagreed with their opinions.

And I both recognize and praise this fact personally, Foil. Thus far, I've tried my best to keep at least MY contributions in the dispute from focusing on, or pointing fingers at, you too much, mostly for this very reason. And I may not take the same sides in the matter, but I also acknowledge that you have a good argument on the matter too.

That said, don't take what IHateHacker says too personally. No offense to him, but subtly isn't always one of his strong points.

So people boast about tri-chording. Big deal. I still remember flying the Phoenix (fastest ship) and a Magnum (slowest) passed me by. Yeah, I don't know tri-chording at all. Did I find this unfair? You kidding? I played Descent online a LOT, most nights, especially when I was unemployed. Big deal if 99% of the players knew tri-chording and I didn't. It was FUN!

I know what you mean! If anything, playing without tricording adds a kind of challenge, to see if you can actually stand a chance against those tricording pilots without tricording yourself. In my experience, I usually didn't, but that's beside the point. The game can, and is, fun without tricording, nor is tricording the ONLY way to play it...just the preferred way for some players. Which is totally fine. It's just there's plenty of other players are a-okay playing it another way.

I get it, but even without my favorite joystick, I found a way to work it out, and it was fun! I have the game on Linux, can't get it to run though, but if I could, and games were still playing, I'm in. Tri-chording or not, I am in!

This is personally my stance on the matter. Maybe Scottis's game lacks an element we're used to Descent, but as Vanguard also pointed out, this isn't Descent. Of course it's going to be different. And I don't really mind. Game still looks like plenty of fun. 

[Matthew]

...most multiplayer games tended to devolve into something not dissimilar to a modern fighter sim: People flying around in a forward-ish direction, pulsing the AB and spewing weapons fire until they pass, then zooming around a corner.

Then you haven't played me.  I chord constantly in dogfights, and I never run away from a fight (which is actually a weakness in my game, heh).

I disagree that it should be a setting. D3 does not have a "descent-1 mode". Starcraft does not have a "Supreme commander mode".

It's a consideration.  If Scottris finds that the lack of the tri-chording mechanic is losing him sales, it may be worth it.

...people who complain and talk about not buying/playing a game because it lacks some feature from some other game they are a huge fan of are simply sticks in the mud, imo, and should not be paid much attention.

I simply stated my opinion.  The name-calling doesn't help here.

I apologize if you felt this post was specifically directed at you, it wasn't. You also didn't threaten not to buy it right off the bat because it didn't have trichording. I was being overly broad, that's my bad. I have played against you before, and I very much enjoyed it. Most games I play, however, do seem to end up like I said, which is unfortunate.

I am not talking just about the people in this thread, but the community in general. I generally have no problem with the people here, however there are other people in the community with similar opinions who are not quite so gracious about it.

[Eagle131]

Well, +1 because this game looks like it'll be fun.

[-<WillyP>-]

You can't please all of the people all of the time. I'm sure it will be a great game with or without tricording.

I am sure every game gets comments like this. Every game that I have played, that has had updates, there are players saying some feature added or removed has destroyed the game. World of Tanks and World of Warcraft come to mind.

And I will say I think it's an amazing accomplishment for someone to make a complete working game like this by them selves. It really speaks to your self motivation, determination, etc. Many kudos to ya!

[Kaiaatzl]

I am sure every game gets comments like this. Every game that I have played, that has had updates, there are players saying some feature added or removed has destroyed the game. World of Tanks and World of Warcraft come to mind.

I see that all the time on the Maniaplanet forums.  The silliest discussion I saw recently was one about a particular kind of antialiasing which somebody didn't like and said it completely ruined the game for him.  I was thinking "if that's the reason you're going to stop playing the game you shouldn't have started in the first place..."

[Scottris]

A good discussion, good points made all around.

But enough talk. Time to play. The Beta is ready.

[Foil]

I see you've added some variety with different ship types, and removed some of the counter-chording language in the "Flight School" area (though it still appears thrusts are not additive?).  Intriguing...

[Scottris]

I see you've added some variety with different ship types, and removed some of the counter-chording language in the "Flight School" area (though it still appears thrusts are not additive?).  Intriguing...

Good catch. I remain dubious about the matter, but I am experimenting with trichording mechanics as an option. If it is possible to integrate it without compromising the game for those not using it, then it might make it into the final version. No promises.

It is true that the mechanic adds a certain "depth" to the game. And I like depth, don't get me wrong. BUT, personal preferences aside, Descent suffered greatly from its high barrier to entry, of which the controls and trichording mechanic were greatly responsible. I am building Talon, I hope, to have a better balance between accessibility and depth of play.

[Foil]

The other thing I'm curious about:

Since you decided to weight the forward thrust at 2x any other thrust, this will push "hit and run" and "jousting" tactics to the forefront, and classic Descent-style dogfighting will probably happen very little, if at all.  Why did you make this choice?

[Scottris]

Well, first off I'm guessing that you got the 2x figure from the graphic on the Flight School page? That graphic is exaggerated. The ratio varies from ship to ship, and ranges from ~1.2 to 1.7; no ship has a ratio of 2:1 forward to strafe. And that's top speed. The difference in acceleration forces is actually even less.

Also, I very recently, and as a result of reading various comments on this thread, tweaked the physics values to bias even more towards the strafe, and less the forward speed. I tested it, and felt that this was an improvement.

Bottom line is, I am a fan of the Descent-style circle-strafing dogfights over the hit-and-run of forward-focused flight and space games. Talon does have something of a flight-simy feel to it, but it will not be all about hit-and-run.

[Matthew]

Your comments on the matter are very reassuring, Scottris. It sounds like you've got a very firm grip on design.

[Foil]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. 

A couple more questions:

How does the cloak work?  The Combat Training page seems to indicate it's an always-available option.  Not certain what I think about that.

More importantly (to me): Why radar?  First, 6DoF radar has never worked very well (out of existing 6DoF games, Shattered Horizon has the best one, and it's still difficult to interpret as 3D).  Second, radar is also a driver of "hit 'n run" tactics.

[Scottris]

How does the cloak work?  The Combat Training page seems to indicate it's an always-available option.  Not certain what I think about that.

The cloak is always available, and it can be kept on indefinitely. However, using the cloak does come with some caveats:

• You cannot fire weapons while cloaked; pressing a trigger with the cloak on will cause the cloak to disengage, and weapons will not be available until the un-cloaking process has completed.
• Cloaking takes time: 2 seconds to fully cloak, and 1 second to de-cloak
• Cloaking does not make you complete invisible, other cloaked ships can see you; and if you take damage, the shield glow will be visible through the cloak, giving away your position.
• Your Afterburner Jets do not function while cloaked, reducing your forward speed.
• Finally, the cloak makes noise. The sound of a cloaked ship can be heard by those nearby.

Combine the various ways in which a cloaked ship can be detected with the fact that cloaked ships cannot return fire, and you have a tactical cloaking system that is far from the instant-advantage no-downsides bonus that it was in Descent.

The other problem that I had with the cloak in Descent was that it was applied immediately upon picking up the powerup, and lasted for only a short time. This made it effectively useless more often than not, as it was rare to get it at the exact time when you actually need it / can use it. The cloak in Talon is a tactical tool, not a "treat" tossed to you every now and again.

More importantly (to me): Why radar?  First, 6DoF radar has never worked very well (out of existing 6DoF games, Shattered Horizon has the best one, and it's still difficult to interpret as 3D).  Second, radar is also a driver of "hit 'n run" tactics.

Why radar? Because situation awareness is good. The radar in Talon does not give you perfect positioning information for every ship around, but it definitely helps. How well does it work? You'll have to try it. I think it works very well.

BTW, if you want to lie in wait for a surprise attack, power down your ship. You will not show up on radar while your ship is powered down, and powering up again to fight is near-instantaneous. The only caveat is that it takes your shields a few seconds to charge up from an off state.

As for radar driving hit-and-run tactics, I don't see how that works, perhaps you could explain?

[Foil]

As for radar driving hit-and-run tactics, I don't see how that works, perhaps you could explain?

Radar, especially when there is an ability to cloak, largely removes the element of needing to sight one's opponents.  To put it simply, this drives tactics which favor distance combat, like:
- "hit 'n run" attacks
- "pop-a-shot" around corners/walls
- "pirating" (where a player stays out of the fray until two or more others get into combat, and fires from distance to get easy kills)
- "tunnel ratting"
- "sniping"

If you want to get away from the above, I highly suggest making radar less of a gameplay factor (perhaps only when cloaked, or a limited-use powerup)?