Topic: So I've made a 6DoF game

[Scottris]

This is not a decision I made lightly. I gave it a great deal of thought, and testing, over many years. I would strongly encourage everyone to give it a try before condemning this system.

I feel like I'm getting too defensive here, and I apologize. I stand by my reasoning, but it is not an objective issue, and I should not be dismissive of the perfectly valid opposing position. We should have the debate, BUT, perhaps now is not the time. There will be a beta soon. I hope many of you will participate, even if, or especially if, you disagree with me about trichording. Give it a try, tell me what you think, and we can discuss it.

[NUMBERZero]

Wait a minute, I am getting confused. I think you are contradicting yourself. You say that you want greater freedom of movement, but according to your Flight Dynamics, "so you will always be fastest traveling straight ahead," the fastest way from point A to point B is by flying straight. There's only one option for speed. Speed is a factor in movement.

And if your thrusters  are normalized, then that means every single direction that you choose besides straight is one speed arbitrarily.
Two speeds: One fast and twenty five slow. (26 total ways for your ship to move)

Descent has six slow speeds (standard), twelve medium speeds (bi-chording), eight top speeds (tri-chording).

Also, for those flight sims, since you cannot slide, you are forced to either attack or evade, like you said, and any pilot's best friend, even real fighter pilots, is speed. So in Talon, the only way to get the best speed is by flying straight. Why slide around while running if that slows you down? Any chase becomes a flight sim and no additional movements on a different plane will be necessary.

One thing that humans strive for is to go fast. People tune their racecars to go faster, build rocket cars to race across the desert to set speed records, jump from near-orbit altitudes to set height and speed records, and build space ships that can travel faster to get to distant places. There are so many options in the world for one to go fast, it's challenging. But Talon only has one.


This would all make sense if you wanted a slower paced game.






Ninja EDIT: Ok, good idea. I would love to try the beta.

[Scottris]

@NUMBERZero: You make extremely good points. And you are correct in pointing out the contradiction in my position. The problem is that I have been working on this for so long, it is difficult to remember everything that went into the decisions that I made years ago. My mind is producing hasty post-hoc rationalizations for those decisions, because I've forgotten what all the pieces were that went into them. Part of it was about the awkwardness of flying around at odd angles, part of it was about a desire to streamline the controls to make Talon more accessible to a wider audience, and more comfortable to play with keyboard and mouse. That's why the forward direction is simply faster, because it's an always-on afterburner, to eliminate the need for a dedicated AB key. Anyway, I am glad you are interested in trying the beta, because I am curious to hear your feedback.

@ everyone else: I'm sorry for getting defensive, and for my hasty and somewhat aggressive responses. I have been under a great deal of stress lately, for a variety of reasons. I'd like to say that I'll do better going forward, and I will try, but it is likely that the stresses in my life are going to get worse before they get better. 

[Pumo]

Nah, no worries, I think it's right to defend your position, as it's clear you made your decissions not lightly at all, but with very deep thought about them.

As I told you, I do also enjoy tri-chording from time to time and understand the position of tri-chording fans (like NumberZero on this case), but I still feel that's not the most important point of the game nor what defines the Descent feel at all, that I think Talon already achieved to replicate it somewhat, judging by the video.

And anyway, if there will be a Beta soon, let's try it first, to better bring serious opinion later on.

[Scyphi]

Bah, I could never figure out how to tricord anyway, so all this does is even the playing field for me. I say we actually play the game first before we judge how bad or good the loss of tricord is anyway.

Judging from the videos, it still looks and feels like it plays like Descent, so maybe tricording really doesn't make THAT big of a difference.

And don't worry about being defensive Scottis, because in comparison to others I've seen get defensive, you were being quite tame and reasonable in comparison, and better still, YOU were the one who decided to back off. I seriously wish I saw that more often on messaging boards.

Looking forward to that beta.

[Foil]

Judging from the videos, it still looks and feels like it plays like Descent, so maybe tricording really doesn't make THAT big of a difference.

To many of us, it won't feel like Descent without vector-added chording.  There is a distinct "feel" to the ability to balance speed and orientation - it's a game mechanic like no other, and it adds to the depth of play. 

If I'm chasing another player, do I straighten out to aim, or orient myself for the chase... or better yet, find an angle where I can do both?  If I need to make an escape, do I straighten out to maximize my visibility, or orient myself for speed... or adjust the speed/visibility balance as needed?

There's an almost-tangible (and very enjoyable!) balance to chording, but unfortunately most 6DoF games that claim to be "Descent-ish" lose this.  A good recent example is Retrovirus, which is a very good 6DoF game, but has the same "normalized" movement, so all the flight feels flat.

[ The same goes for the "always-on afterburner".  There's something fun about using the afterburner, and making the judgement call about when to use it, and when to let it recharge.  Removing it just leaves that mechanic flat. ]

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Scottris, while I understand your desire to normalize all movement vectors, doing that comes at a cost: It flattens a deep game mechanic.  Here's my suggestion:  Why not at least add vector-added chording (and limited afterburner) as an option?  Making the harsh choice to remove it without even the option is going to cost you players/buyers (including me).

[Kaiaatzl]

And here we have a textbook example of a trichording addict.
Meh.  The point is that you still have to learn it, and more than that, to learn to live in the chording like a second skin, in order to be competitive.  And it's not exactly easy to learn.  I think including it would turn off a bigger number of potential new players than the number of old players who would be turned off by not having it.

Making it optional feels like it could solve both problems though.  I certainly agree with Foil about the afterburner.

The game looks amazing.  Although I'm like Pumo as more of a singleplayer guy... I'd still buy this for the multiplayer.  Is there going to be a soundtrack?

[VANGUARD]

What we're faced with are some who don't care because they never learned how to tri-chord (me included), and those who use it naturally/with flow. And that can be an issue. I'm bad at examples, sorry, but it'd be like slowing down to make a turn VS having to stop fully to make a turn. I know that's not tri-chording, but it's something we do naturally on the road

Maybe better example: playing Call of Duty for the first time on a console. I had to move one joystick, then another, to align myself to shoot or move. Now I do it so freely, using multiple buttons.

I get both sides.

[-<WillyP>-]

don't feel you have to defend your choice, it is your choice. I didn't mean to be accusatory, or start a war, I was just curious about your reasoning behind this choice. As pointed out by others, tricording is not an easy thing to learn, and the play might be more acceptable to new players without it.

However, I think the idea of being able to switch it on or off is a good one. I would suggest for multi-player the host should choose to enable it or not, trichord-enabled games should be labeled as advanced.  Single-player or co-op modes, if you have those, should be up to the player.

Of course it's your game and I am just glad to see something like this come around.

[Matthew]

Personally, I agree with Scottris. Tri-chording always seemed to me like a rather silly example of "skill" some people like to flaunt about, especially in the face of new players (Yes, games need to attract these mythical creatures!). I'm not entirely happy to see it gone, as I did often use at least bi-chording to slide around corners, but most multiplayer games tended to devolve into something not dissimilar to a modern fighter sim: People flying around in a forward-ish direction, pulsing the AB and spewing weapons fire until they pass, then zooming around a corner. For me at least, this is not fun. As much as some people might disagree, trichording is a toxic mechanic, especially combined with the oddities of the afterburner mechanics (I noticed somebody said something about a choice of using the afterburner or not, which is simply untrue. If you're not pulsing the afterburner constantly, you're doing it definitively wrong. Which is a bad mechanic as well).

You're right, it won't feel like Descent, I agree. But people say that about D3 as well, or even D2 if you talk to the real squeaky wheels. But I think that's both discounting the game and missing the point. 6DoF games are not all meant to be exact clones of Descent. I look forward to seeing a different take on the genre, perhaps (maybe?) one a bit more friendly to people who haven't been playing the game religiously for 15 years.

I disagree that it should be a setting. D3 does not have a "descent-1 mode". Starcraft does not have a "Supreme commander mode". You can't include every game mechanic people miss from similar games as an option, and if you make even one, then why not this mechanic and that mechanic? If you add a tri-chording setting, you need to add a "momentary afterburner" setting, a quad-laser setting, etc. etc. people who complain and talk about not buying/playing a game because it lacks some feature from some other game they are a huge fan of are simply sticks in the mud, imo, and should not be paid much attention. A game needs to be judged on its own merits, not by how good a clone it is of a person's favorite game.

However I disagree with the always-on afterburner for the very reasons scottris himself stated earlier in regards to trichording: It makes one direction simply better, and that's bad for a 6DoF game.

[Foil]

...most multiplayer games tended to devolve into something not dissimilar to a modern fighter sim: People flying around in a forward-ish direction, pulsing the AB and spewing weapons fire until they pass, then zooming around a corner.

Then you haven't played me.  I chord constantly in dogfights, and I never run away from a fight (which is actually a weakness in my game, heh).

I disagree that it should be a setting. D3 does not have a "descent-1 mode". Starcraft does not have a "Supreme commander mode".

It's a consideration.  If Scottris finds that the lack of the tri-chording mechanic is losing him sales, it may be worth it.

...people who complain and talk about not buying/playing a game because it lacks some feature from some other game they are a huge fan of are simply sticks in the mud, imo, and should not be paid much attention.

I simply stated my opinion.  The name-calling doesn't help here.

[Scyphi]

Then you haven't played me.

But I have! And it didn't end well for me, because as I said before, I could never figure out how to tricord, and thus the odds were always against me, which in a way proves the point: in Descent MP, it's either tricord or the highway (which would sound catchier if that actually rhymed) thus alienating the new players that don't know how, which I think is exactly what Scottis is trying to avoid, or at least in part. Sure, the lack of tricording alienates veteran players who don't want to relearn how to play the game too, but the potential for drawing in new players could easily compensate for that. It also encourages variety by which it forces players to come up with NEW tactics at which to be the best at. And this is all before any of us (except Scottis) has actually played the game. Personally I think everyone, and I MEAN everyone, should wait to play the beta before judging whether or not the lack of tricording ruins anything, and until then, be open-minded about new ideas.

I disagree that it should be a setting. D3 does not have a "descent-1 mode". Starcraft does not have a "Supreme commander mode".

And there is another point to be made in that; adding in the optional setting kind of screams "hey, this game is ripping off Descent!" which seems mightily unprofessional, not to mention the fact that it also kind of says that the regular game "isn't good enough without it" which shows a lack of confidence in the product, both of which could theoretically hurt sales as much as the loss of veteran players over the lack of tricording theoretically could (by how much being QUITE arguable). So if we REALLY want to get semantic over it, it's a lose-lose no matter how you do it.

Still, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and that's always been a ruling factor in the success/failure of a game. If they choose to or not to play a game, that's their choice to make, and sometimes you just have to accept that. It doesn't make them any more or less of a person.

[Kaiaatzl]

Wow, Hackers, you've outdone me.
I'm impressed.  Even my views on anti-trichord aren't that strong.

Then you haven't played me.  I chord constantly in dogfights, and I never run away from a fight (which is actually a weakness in my game, heh).

Yeah, but you can run away from fights even without chording.  I do it all the time XD.

[Matthew]

Wow, Hackers, you've outdone me.
I'm impressed.  Even my views on anti-trichord aren't that strong.

I don't think so. I just use strong language, combined with a strong dislike for the attitudes of certain tri-chording supporters.

[Foil]

...the attitudes of certain tri-chording supporters.

This is what I don't understand.  What "attitude" are you referring to?

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Since I seem to be the target of this accusation, let's talk about it.  Yes, I'm probably fairly representative of the "strong tri-chord supporter" type.  I enjoy it, and I've said I think it's one of the best and most fun skills to learn. 

However, unlike others here, I have never denounced non-trichorders, or insinuated anything about their character, or called them names because I disagreed with their opinions.

So, please, what exactly is the "attitude" you have a problem with here?