Topic: Descent plotholes thread

[Kaiaatzl]

Hive Mind.  The only difference there was that the Virus itself was the sentient antagonist.

[TechPro]

For a virus supposedly with a "hive mind" ... it sure didn't act that way.  More like "single minded mind" (ie: Infect bots and kill humans, save some hostages for snacks later on).  Really didn't accomplish (or try to accomplish) anything else.

You know, the CED was totally worthless.  They get one infection and their whole dreadnought is non-functional ... and the CED can't do anything about it.  So one pilot (albeit a seasoned pilot) goes in with one well armed craft and not only stops the infection there from continuing to spread, but cleans up the infection for them WITHOUT destroying the dreadnought.  With all the supposed resources the CED has/had at their disposal, why were they so helpless? ... Then ... when MD shuts down the virus,  then (and only then) does the CED actually step in and do anything, and what is their solution?  Three really ginormous missiles blowing the PTMC's station to a bazillion pieces, effectively scattering potentially infected pieces and bots just about everywhere ... and offer a large bunch of money to civilians who shoot up the bits and bots that the CED scattered.  The CED couldn't even clean up their own mess.  All they could do is fly around and "push the red button" to file really big missiles.

The CED was worthless.

[Scyphi]

Red Acropolis was more capable than the CED, and they were the underfunded, framed, scientists.

[Pumo]

Adding something more to TechPro's observations, one of the thing that bugs me A LOT from the D3 ending, is that the CED decides to destroy PTMC's Shiva station, without taking in account if there were any innocent PTMC workers inside the station, as it seems they decide just to blow it without giving any advice (at least an advice to evacuate the station or something).

I mean, Dravis and the PTMC may be not so good, but then EVERYONE else that works for the PTMC like a normal employee, needs to pay for Dravis' crimes?

In that scene the CED looks like cold-hearted murderers to me, and I don't like it at all.

[NUMBERZero]

Ok, I'm having a somewhat tough time with the tl;dr syndrome. I have theories for a few questions.


WHY BLOW UP THE MINES?
The mine's computers, circuitry, ect are infected with the virus. Wipe out the virus by blowing up the mine. Plus the reactor shoots at you. If it tries to kill you, you kill it right back.

WHY DID DRAVIS BETRAY THE MD?
He needed the MD to go out to distant systems to flush out the robots, so he gave him the warp core. To save money, instead of paying the MD when he got back, he sabotaged the warp core. The MD could have spread the word that the virus was of ALIEN ORIGIN and might have gotten the CED involved. So Dravis sabotaged the MD and he sent the merc to destroy CED tracking station to prevent CED involvement. This allows for PTMC salvage to move in on the first planetoid and the second planetoid in Mercenary unhindered.

WHY DID THE CED BLOW UP SHIVA STATION?
Dravis is the overlord of Shiva station. If they weren't indoctrinated and convinced by the allure of galactic conquest and profit, then they could have been like mindless idiots and been like "HEY! The robots are shooting at the CED...LET'S HELP OUT OUR BOTS! MAN THE GUNZ!"

WHY TAKE HOSTAGES?
The first batch of infected robots (D1 and D2) could have interrogated the hostages for the locations of other holdings (OBJECTION! 'They could have downloaded the data from the mine's computers!'-- Mine personnel could have sabotaged the data before being captured), military information, bait for traps, better understanding the enemy, and according to the novels, downloading their brains into the robots themselves to give them personalities to better understand the enemy (that backfires though...sometimes).

[Scyphi]

I can poke holes in your hole-filling, though not all of them are big holes, so don't panic too much here, but to begin...

The mine's computers, circuitry, ect are infected with the virus. Wipe out the virus by blowing up the mine. Plus the reactor shoots at you. If it tries to kill you, you kill it right back.

Then why not just destroy the computers? Why destroy the WHOLE darn mine, which would be a major financial blow for PTMC, which regardless of where Dravis was in his master plans, was his lifeline at the time?

He needed the MD to go out to distant systems to flush out the robots, so he gave him the warp core. To save money, instead of paying the MD when he got back, he sabotaged the warp core. The MD could have spread the word that the virus was of ALIEN ORIGIN and might have gotten the CED involved.

I admittedly have a hard time buying this. As PTMC was the biggest bureaucratic business around, and the MD's mission authorized by the PTMC on a whole (remember, Dravis was NOT large and in charge of the company when he assigned MD the mission) the fact that they just didn't want to pay seems dumb, especially seeing that when they want someone to stay quiet about their private plans, they give 'em money. LOTS of money. You'd think Dravis would think that drowning MD in money to keep him quiet and getting him out of the way would be easier and safer than trying to kill him, unless he had some reason to suspect MD wouldn't keep quiet even with the money (which, now that I think about it, doesn't seem to be in MD's character. Until Red Acropolis talked him into siding with them, he seemed more than willing to just turn a blind eye to it all, just so long as he got paid. In fact, I think the very fact that he HADN'T got paid was what got him to agree to help Red Acropolis at all) but even then, what would MD have to tell? He knew nothing of Dravis's REAL plans, and the virus and it's origins were probably already common knowledge, especially to the CED, who are referred to off-and-on in D3 to be engaged in their own plans to fight the virus, including Project Failsafe (Merc level 2). It seems like they were studying that second planetoid for awhile too, and Dravis's attempts to keep a lid on that actually always seemed a little late to me. I'm sure the rest of the CED got SOME word about it being out there. More likely Dravis ordered it destroyed just to keep the CED from finding out more than they did, or to make their own plans to hunt down the virus's source and eliminate it, which could interfere with Dravis's plans.

Dravis is the overlord of Shiva station. If they weren't indoctrinated and convinced by the allure of galactic conquest and profit, then they could have been like mindless idiots and been like "HEY! The robots are shooting at the CED...LET'S HELP OUT OUR BOTS! MAN THE GUNZ!"

So out of the no-doubt thousands of employees on Shiva, not one was against Dravis? Sorry, I may be bad at math, but even to me, the odds for that don't add up, especially when you consider that Dravis was being very low-brow about his plans, keeping it only to people he could trust THE MOST. The more people you let in, the more risk you run on it getting out. More likely, most, if not all, of those employees knew little to nothing about Dravis's plans. What purpose does blowing up Shiva even serve anyway, except to be destructive? The station's defenses clearly only included a swarm of infected robots. The moment MD deactivated them and gave the CED their "clear shot," the station appeared to be totally defenseless, and whoever on board that was still on Dravis's side likely wouldn't have anywhere to run. Getting them to surrender seems more reasonable, not blowing them up just because.

The first batch of infected robots (D1 and D2) could have interrogated the hostages for the locations of other holdings (OBJECTION! 'They could have downloaded the data from the mine's computers!'-- Mine personnel could have sabotaged the data before being captured), military information, bait for traps, better understanding the enemy, and according to the novels, downloading their brains into the robots themselves to give them personalities to better understand the enemy (that backfires though...sometimes).

Except the robots don't really seem like the interrogating type. In fact, their AI doesn't even seem to include any real means of verbally communicating with humans, so this idea, while not bad, isn't perfect. I like the bait for traps idea, though, and the "better understanding of the enemy" and the novel's ideas could work too. They're at least better explanations than what we've already come up with.

[Kaiaatzl]

...and according to the novels, downloading their brains into the robots themselves to give them personalities to better understand the enemy (that backfires though...sometimes).

True I guess... but pretty much the only things I remember from the one book I read were the "Frank" subplot and Dravis' interesting journey into insanity (which took me a long time to understand).  And Manman.  Definitely Manman.

[TechPro]

In Descent 3 Level 3 (Piccu Station and SRAD Research) never really made sense to me.  I mean, yes you needed to get a data cartridge and it never is as simple as that, but still there seemed to be a whole lot of totally unnecessary effort involved.

Here's how it goes ... You get dropped off in a warehouse/storage room, battle your way through a number of passages until you get to an outside area where you blow the "lightning tower", go back inside to a different section and blow your way through the passages where you blow your way through ... and perhaps also signal a SRAD emergency response time ... until you eventually get to some weird/off underground caves (entranced from a room with a locked/damaged/closed outside door) to work your way outside ... yet again ... so that you can work your way through some old/bizarre ancient ruin to emerge the other side (still "outside") in order to enter the "lab" area (bust your way through simple glass) in order to retrieve some data... and exit through the same simple glass to leave the whole place....  Where you see the SRAD response team waiting (if you successfully signalled them) ... and you safely leave without traveling any additional areas in doors.

So ... Why all the passages and going outside not just once, but three times before you actually get to the portion you wanted to get to in the first place?   Why didn't the Red Acropolis people drop MD off just outside the "lab"?  It's obvious they knew that was the destination area, and it's obvious they knew where the lab was at.  What was the purpose of MD going through the entire Piccu Station blowing every bot in sight when they knew they only needed to go to the lab?   Does the Red Acropolis people have a death wish for MD?   The Red Acropolis people knew how to discreetly tap Davis' communications and track MD, were they really that inept about setting MD down near the goal?

Truth is, the Descent 3 builders wanted gameplay action, puzzle challenges, and especially wanted to show off taking MD outside... but we're talking about plot holes here, and there are a few in Level 3 of Descent 3.

[Kaiaatzl]

I think it's pretty obvious Red Acropolis are total morons.  Why did they drop you off in total deathtrap of a subway in the next level?  Surely there are other places in a city that can be used for a covert insertion (and are probably easier to get to).  For that matter how did they get you into the subway in the first place?
In fact, if your ship would be seen as hostile why would they even let you go at all no matter how much they thought you might want to (and judging by MD's character up to that point it seems pretty obvious he wouldn't have wanted to).  Or why not have you pilot something that isn't a fighter ship?  They do have at least two -- the Tugship that helps you out in level 6 and whatever that ship was that you rescued in level 11... plus the Beagle which needed to dock on Earth for refueling anyway.
So yeah, morons.

[Scyphi]

I always wondered why they didn't just sneak MD in via the Beagle for level 4, like they did in level 10.

As for level 3, I suspect part of the reason for the extremely in-direct route was because the level apparently went through a few different iterations before arriving at the final version we have now (remember the first D3 demo with the crashed alien saucer?), and the developers just later recycled most of it, either because they liked it too much to part with it, didn't have time to build something that fit into it better, or for other reasons.

Either way, I know from personal experience that this tactic for building something can often times lead to things not lining up like they should, plot-wise.

[Matthew]

Here's one for ya: You're flying a SPACE FIGHTER. Why do you have to fly through little canyons in outdoor levels that are conveniently just barely taller than what you can fly over? Why can't you fly that extra 2 inches up and over? And yet these little robots designed for mine usage can fly up and over the tops of them just fine.

[TechPro]

Yes, 'curious' that your "Space Fighter" cannot go over those hills, ridges, canyon tops yet those pesky bots can ... but you can speedily transit in your "Space Fighter" across the solar system in a relatively short time.

Level 4 (Sol and the PTMC) is a bit goofy with how the Beagle drops you off deep in the subways leaving you to transit through the subways, down many street passages, into the sewers, then down more street passageways before you get to the entrance to the PTMC tower (which was physically right next to the subways) where you upload your data to Mr. Suzuki whereupon you are attacked while trying to leave.

No wonder the PTMC was out of control.  No one could get to them (did their employees live at work?  If they left to go home or for lunch did they also have to travel the sewers to get home??)... and those who managed to get there, would be attacked before leaving PTMC grounds.

How would you feel if you had to fight your way to a doctor's office for an appointment, then get attacked in the waiting room when you tried to leave?

For Level 4, MD had traveled by way of the Beagle to get to Earth and Sol city (remember, the Beagle left MD in the subways while they took the Beagle to get refueled) ... but it looks like (start of Level 5) MD traveled by himself in his Pyro all the way from Earth back to the Red Acropolis on Mars (he states "they must have tracked me!").  Why does MD keep letting them haul him around in the Beagle?  Rarely do they set him down in a good place, and he can certainly get there all by himself.

It also appears that MD visited with Suzuki after uploading the data and was paid his money, probably by Suzuki.  The Level 5 video clip starts with: "Suzuki's with us! ...[blah blah]...  I even got my money! I'm going home!" --- In the video clip at the end of Level 4 you can just make out what looks like a cloaked ship headed towards the PTMC tower.  We're led to believe that's the Mercenary sent to kill Suzuki and frame MD.  Why did MD leave the tower so soon?  He'd just uploaded his data, could not yet know Suzuki was one their side, and certainly had not been paid yet.  Wouldn't he need to return back to the tower in order to get paid?

I'm going to assume that MD doesn't get any news video/radio/updates while traveling in the Pyro.  He traveled all the way from Earth to Mars, yet was unaware of them being accused of being terrorists.  If there was an upgrade the Pyro needs, it's a news transmission receiver or "news data link", because his communications receiver with PTMC, CED, and Red Acropolis sure doesn't seem to get anything else.

Oh, and one more thing.  In the start of Level 5, at the end of the video clip, Harper tells MD to get everyone to the Beagle ... even though his real task is to keep three of the five reactors working while Harper and the rest evacuate.  It's just a little detail.

[Matthew]

Dropping MD off in the beagle on level 4 was likely stealthier than having him just fly into the city all on his own.

[Kaiaatzl]

So... drop him off right at the PTMC tower then.
Suzuki was kind of expecting them.

[-<WillyP>-]

That's why you had to be dropped off at a secret location.