Topic: Who else thinks kids nowadays are effed in the head?

[Kaiaatzl]

Have them work in a kennel and develop an appreciation for other forms of life?

[CrazyEnzo03]

Community service, what does that mean to you?

Busting my ass and breaking my back unloading several truck loads of large wooden furniture such as china cabinets and desks, removing all the wooden palettes from the trailer, and then placing all of that wooden furniture back into the trailer and taking the palettes out behind the building, then ending the day with stacking asbestos.

[Alieo]

It could have easily been a puppy.

Speaking of which...

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/120502-crosby-puppy-massacre-catches-eye-of-local-law

Yeah, the Houston area is effed up in general, and that's what kids like these will be involved with if there isn't some sort of intervention early on.

[-<WillyP>-]

Meant the question for Bett, since she suggested it, but no, 11 and 13 year old kids aren't going to do any community service that resembles work, let alone hard work.

[CrazyEnzo03]

Where I'm at, yes they do...

...assuming they do community service where I did.

Ok so I volunteered.  But I was the only one who did out of, well, several.  I was 16 at the time but these kids were mostly younger.

The bad thing is, they don't learn even from there.

[-<WillyP>-]

Just came across this:

[Bettina]

WillyP... I may have misread you but to clarify I would seek criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time and most importantly a psychological evaluation for the reasons I explained. Kaiaatsel mentioned service in an animal shelter and that sounds like a great idea. A full summer and a few essays on the subject of animal cruelty would wipe the criminal charge clean....pending results of the evaluation.

Also, relying on parents to correct the problems with the group we are speaking of can't be counted on. They need evaluation by a trained professional to make sure they aren't just another group of kids that will eventually ruin his or her life. How many times have we heard parents or neighbors say "I can't believe he did that. He was always a polite and pleasant kid with good grades"...or "She would never do something like that, it must be a mistake".

No matter how much you believe your child to be an angel, some have a true dual personality.

[Alieo]

WillyP... I may have misread you but to clarify I would seek criminal charges in the form of community service without jail time and most importantly a psychological evaluation for the reasons I explained. Kaiaatsel mentioned service in an animal shelter and that sounds like a great idea. A full summer and a few essays on the subject of animal cruelty would wipe the criminal charge clean....pending results of the evaluation.

Also, relying on parents to correct the problems with the group we are speaking of can't be counted on. They need evaluation by a trained professional to make sure they aren't just another group of kids that will eventually ruin his or her life. How many times have we heard parents or neighbors say "I can't believe he did that. He was always a polite and pleasant kid with good grades"...or "She would never do something like that, it must be a mistake".

No matter how much you believe your child to be an angel, some have a true dual personality.

I agree with everything you said right here. 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself!

[-<WillyP>-]

Bett, I can't say what you misread or didn't, but you are missing the point of what I am saying. What you would propose is exactly why kids are going wrong today. Kids believe they are above the authority of their parents and your bleeding heart liberal solutions are the reason why. My kids don't do these kinds of things because they are taught otherwise. I can't guarantee they never will, but I believe they are taught by my wife and I why these things are wrong, and a proper upbringing is the closest thing to a guarantee I can offer society. And I never said my kids were angels, in fact I am saying just the opposite, that things like this should be used by parents as 'teaching moments'. Not that there isn't any moment in a parent-child that isn't a 'teaching moment'.

Your preaching total dependency on nanny state government solutions is breeding a culture of just that... A culture of total dependance on the nanny state government solutions for everything, and parents of these kids often hold no sense of responsibility for raising these kids. I could see community service for the parents, if the parents show no interest in controlling and disciplining these kids.

Is this really what you want for the future generations in this country? If it is, perhaps you would prefer life in communist China.

[Kaiaatzl]

Oh, wow I'm getting out of this now.

[Matthew]

Not saying I agree with the nanny state (or such huge, expensive tax expenditures), but I think sending kids who do bad things like that to volunteer at an animal shelter is a good idea. Whether it should be the parent's responsibility or not I'm unsure of. Sure, you raise your kids right. Kids that are raised right don't get involved in this crap at all. It's the kids with bad parents who would fall under this in the first place. At some point it goes beyond simply good parenting or bad and starts being protecting society from kids who weren't raised right, something there seems to be an awful lot of (relatively speaking). I'm not saying I want a nanny state, but it would be nice to have a country where my future safety or my kids' safety is not left up to some half-assed parent who didn't teach their kids right from wrong.

[Scyphi]

I'll probably bail soon too if this keeps up, but in the mean time...

I partly agree with Bett, in the sense that she brings up a few good points and possibly could work under the right situations, BUT I'm not convinced it'll work in the situations like the one with the turtle (and on up from there), in fact, I honestly doubt it would. It feels too much like it'd be letting the kids off just a touch too easily, and I really don't think they'd learn anything that'd keep them from turning around and doing it again (if anything, the only thing they could learn is to just not get caught a second time) and this is where I have to side with WillyP. Regardless of the punishment, the parents need to step in and do their part as parents, and see to it that these kids really know not to do this again. Yeah, you can't guarantee that it'll stop them, but neither will community service, so it really boils down to what's more effective, and for that I choose the former over the latter.

I also totally do not buy the writing a few essays as punishment idea. I mean, think about it, really think about it. That's like having mass murderers and terrorists from Al Queda write essays about what how wrong the things they've done is and believing that'll keep them from ever doing it again as if it's some kind of binding document. And even if it was, that would only be effective until one of them decides to break it, and then you can't stop them (that's happened with peace treaties of all sorts again and again throughout the history of...well...any country). It wouldn't stop them from ever doing anything again, and it most certainly wouldn't teach them anything.

And they may be kids, but that doesn't mean that what they did is any less serious. And sometimes serious actions need serious punishments.

(BTW, Bett, I don't say any of this to be mean, I'm just trying to make a few points, and in this instance, being viciously blunt was the best way to do it.)

And WillyP, I won't profess to be any expert on Chinese affairs, but judging from what I've heard taking place in there, I would think they'd actually have the opposite problem at the moment. The Chinese have had a very long history of having very...shall we say...authoritative families? As in, if you don't obey the rules of the family, you're going to be in for it? What you're describing sounds much more like an American/European issue, the two that have had a much bigger history with this sort of thing. At any rate, right or wrong, that was a rather low jab on your part, essentially accusing poor Bett of being Communist, if you don't mind me saying so. This isn't the McCarthy era, after all.

IHateHackers raises a few good points too, mostly the fact that some parents just aren't going to pull through, but as for how to take of the kids in such a situation afterwards is still debatable and depending entirely on the situation. Again, I'm not sure something as simple as community service is going to be enough in this instance. Otherwise I would, admittedly, be all for it.

[-<WillyP>-]

What? How dare you accuse me of accusing Bett of being communist? Please, go re-read what I wrote.

[Foil]

Wow.  Okay, guys.  In the interest of peace, can we all agree on the following?

1.  The primary influence on kids are parents and families.  Thus they bear the primary responsibility in teaching their kids ethical values and behavior.

2.  With that said, a good family does not always guarantee good kids, and many children don't even have caring families.  Thus the education, family services, and justice systems should also be involved when needed.

----------

We could debate on which parenting or punishment approach would work (personally, I think it depends almost entirely on the kids), but in the end the point is that someone needs to intervene in their lives.

Agreed?

[Bettina]

@WillyP... For the record, everything following the first paragraph in my last post was a general comment on the OP and not directed at you. My apologies if you thought otherwise but overall I'm not having any second thoughts about an evaluation for these kids. I've visited China for a week too.

@Ihatehackers... I agree with you but there are cases where good parents who have seemingly good children with good grades, who attend church every Sunday and always do things as a family, end up devastated as they sit in a courtroom listening to their teenager being sentenced. They got fooled and never saw it coming.

@Scyphi... You're not being mean at all. You raise some good points and I agree the essays would probably not work. Read below.

@Foil... I agree that "someone needs to intervene in their lives" and that parents should be the first in line to do this but not in this case for the reasons I already covered. Since they committed a felony it already exceeded normal mischief and requires professional evaluation. Just because someone is a parent doesn't automatically make that parent a mental development expert.

"I can't believe it was him. The whole family is nice". How many times have you heard that from next door neighbors shown on TV.  Not all bad kids come from bad families.

@Alieo.... Thank you.

@Kaiaatsel... Hold that door open for me...

Bee